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Thread: Y-Haplogroup J found in Karelian Eastern Hunter-Gatherer

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Vague and almost pointless question given the dearth of aDNA outside Europe and Russia, but what do people envisage as the territorial range of J haplogroups ~ before the Neolithic ?
    The highland belt of the South Caucasus to Central Asia ? Or was that just the northern edge, with occasional moves even much more north ?
    I'm going to guess something close to RCO's established assessment for J1 (S Caucasus, E Anatolia and N Iran).

    J2 could have overlapped with that, albeit with a slightly more southern distribution (S Anatolia, W Iran).

    South-Central Asia very well could have been the easternmost extent of pre-Neolithic J's distribution. We can be more confident that the western boundary had to have stopped around W Anatolia (as per the EEF carrying farmers).

    Establishing the eastern and southern boundaries is impossible for now without aDNA... We'd have to rely on conjecture (which I don't think anyone's particularly fond of at this point after years of card house collapses ).

    A mix of pure and educated guesswork on my part, once more.

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  3. #102
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    We can find and locate via STRs and SNPs all J1 (just like all other haplogroups) temporal thickness in a region. If we can establish a regular structured cluster we can try to calculate the TMRCA of that specific cluster in that specific region different from others. That's what I am trying to investigate in my own J1-M365 in Western Iberia with a recent historical star like expansion and a regular frequency in the Portuguese demographic stock. The problem with J1 in Eastern Europe has been the fluidity of ethnic or national frontiers where J1 ethnic and national clusters could be regularly found. J1 in Eastern Europe can be very fragmented and isolated just like the Finnish basal YF02055, http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304*/ a very ancient basal type in the J1 haplogroup, a real living fossil in the J1 phylogenetic dimension, but we can't find an organized structure of matches or a regular frequency, even a small one, in any ethnic or national space in Eastern Europe and that condition would apply for almost all interesting basal J1 cases in Eastern Europe.

    DMXX has a very important question.
    We can observe here:

    J antigo atDNA.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...IzdDdNM2s/view

    Of course we need to investigate the ancient genomes from Northern Iran and Central Asia but we have the ancient and modern genomes atDNA from the Caucasus. Just compare ancient Kotias and Satsurblia samples with modern J1 Land in Dagestan or Lezgin, Azeri, Iran, Tajiks and ancient Scythians, some Sarmatians were also identified as J1 some weeks ago and then move to ancient admixed Yamnaya and we can also detect the ancient basal J and J1 belt more or less associated with the newly discovered CHG with different languages but stretching in a continuum from the Caucasian Black Sea, the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea, Northern Iran and going to Iranian Sogdiana and Bactria close to modern Central Asian Tadjikistan samples still in line even after thousands of years of admixtures, but the basal J continuum can still be recognized there.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  5. #103
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    If CHG is a mixture of Basal Eurasian with something else, that leaves open the question of J's potential association with Basal Eurasian, in which case an expansion of J1 with Neolithic farmers would still be a viable scenario. Needless to say, Levantine and Mesopotamian data (especially from the Gulf, as the "Gulf Oasis" hypothesis is a serious contender for J's cradle) is sorely needed to answer these questions, let alone provide educated guesses.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #104
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    I've just started looking into this, but to me it looks like the cradle of Haplogroup J (as well as Haplogroup I) is Kurdistan. So if I were looking for basal parahaplogroup individuals for either I or J, Kurdistan is where I would start. Too bad it is in such a troubled part of the world.
    ------------Ken
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    If CHG is a mixture of Basal Eurasian with something else, that leaves open the question of J's potential association with Basal Eurasian, in which case an expansion of J1 with Neolithic farmers would still be a viable scenario. Needless to say, Levantine and Mesopotamian data (especially from the Gulf, as the "Gulf Oasis" hypothesis is a serious contender for J's cradle) is sorely needed to answer these questions, let alone provide educated guesses.

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  9. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinman View Post
    I've just started looking into this, but to me it looks like the cradle of Haplogroup J (as well as Haplogroup I) is Kurdistan. So if I were looking for basal parahaplogroup individuals for either I or J, Kurdistan is where I would start. Too bad it is in such a troubled part of the world.
    ------------Ken
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Possible, but until we get our hands on ancient data from the region, this is just an educated guess.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #106
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    Three such hunter-gathering individuals of the male sex have had their DNA results published. Each was found to belong to a different Y-DNA haplogroup: R1a, R1b, and J.

    Jones et al. (2015) analyzed genomes from males from western Georgia, in the Caucasus, from the Late Upper Palaeolithic (13,300 years old) and the Mesolithic (9,700 years old). These two males carried Y-DNA haplogroup: J* and J2a. The researchers found that these Caucasus hunters were probably the source of the farmer-like DNA in the Yamnaya, as the Caucasians were distantly related to the Middle Eastern people who introduced farming in Europe.[web 1] Their genomes showed that a continued mixture of the Caucasians with Middle Eastern took place up to 25,000 years ago, when the coldest period in the last Ice Age started.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_...ast_population

    Also J1 was found among Sarmatians or Scythians if I recall correctly.

    Although are the Pontic-Caspian steppes a real contender for the homeland of J or was your opening statement more of a "sarcastic" one? I find it interesting if it is really.
    Last edited by Moe12; 10-03-2018 at 06:52 PM.

  12. #107
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    I think J probably arose or at least became dominant somwhere in the Iran Neolithic-CHG hotzone.

    IMO a more interesting question is where do IJ come from? That may have been a northern forager related haplogroup.

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    Interestingly enough J1 has been found twice now in Mesolithic Russia. Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov and Popovo.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...7069273183&z=4

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