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Thread: The problem of ANE in Caucasus

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    The problem of ANE in Caucasus

    We have a G2-P303 from Neolithic Anatolia. http://yfull.com/tree/G2a2b2a/
    It is a relatively successful (compared to others ) Neolithic lineage because it is present from India to Europe. (1-3% frequency).
    One of his subclades the P303>U1 is very frequent among Abkhaz-Adyghean nations (24-40%). It seems it is one of their main founder lineage.
    Outside of Caucasus the U1 is either inexistant or rare. Except Turkey and Palestine where it can be explained by Circassian's forced migration. Also in Italy 1% (?)

    Now the question is how, where and when the G2-U1 lineage got his ANE?
    Because obviously his ancestral P303 didn't have it in Anatolia. But modern North West Caucasians have quite significant ANE (22-24%).

    What theories we have? Was ANE natively present before the ENF farmers came in Caucasus or it came invaded later when ENF farmers were already established there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Outside of Caucasus the U1 is either inexistant or rare.
    On YFull's haplotree, G-U1 has been found among Belgians, Irish, and Mexicans.

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    Armenia
    G-U1
    Nortern/
    Eastern Europe
    Latvia 0.0
    Estonia 0.8
    Belorussia 0.3
    Poland 0.0
    Ukraine 0.5
    Russia North 0.0
    Russia west/central 0.0
    Russia South 0.0
    Kalmyks (Russia) 0.0
    Bashkirs (Russia) 1.1
    Mordvins (Russia) 0.0
    Chuvashes (Russia) 0.0
    Udmurts (Russia) 0.0
    Tatars (Russia) 0.0
    Western /Central
    /SouthernEurope
    Netherlands 0.0
    Denmark 0.0
    Germany 0.0
    Czech 0.0
    Slovakia 0.0
    Slovaks Roma (gypsies) 0.0
    Slovenia 1.0
    Hungarians 0.0
    Austria 0.0
    Eastern Iberia 0.0
    Southern Iberia 0.0
    Western Iberia 0.0
    Northern Iberia 0.0
    Central Iberia 0.0
    France 0.0
    France, Provence 0.0
    Sardinia set1 0.0
    Sardinia set2 0.2
    Corsica 0.0
    Sicily 0.0
    Italy 1.0
    Switzerland 0.0
    Balkan
    Bosnians 0.0
    Croatians 0.0
    Moldovans 0.0
    Romanians 0.0
    Bulgarians 0.5
    Crete 0.3
    Greece 0.0
    Near/Middle East
    Morocco Berbers 0.0
    Egypt 0.0
    Jordan 0.0
    Lebanese 0.0
    Syria 0.0
    Askenazi Jews 0.0
    Non-Askenazi Jews 0.0
    Qatar 0.0
    United Arab Emirates 0.0
    Oman 0.0
    Yemen 0.0
    Palestina 16.7
    Druze (Israel) 0.0
    Kurds Turkey (Cilicia) 0.0
    Turkey West 0.6
    Turkey Central 2.4
    Turkey East 1.0
    Greeks (Smyrna) 3.4
    Greeks (Phocaea) 0.0
    Assyrians 0.0
    Azeris (Iran) 0.7
    Iran set1 0.4
    Iran set2 0.4
    Caucasus South
    Abkhazes 22.8
    Armenians 1.4
    Georgians 6.1
    South Ossetians 0.0
    Caucasus Northwest
    Abasins 23.3
    Adyghes 39.7

    Balkars 6.6
    Cherkessians 36.5
    Kabardinians 29.1

    Karachays 7.2
    Nogays 6.9
    North Ossetians 2.3
    Caucasus Northeast
    Andis 0.0
    Avars 0.0
    Bagvalals 0.0
    Chamalals 0.0
    Chechens 0.0
    Darginians 0.0
    Ingushes 0.0
    Karanogays 0.0
    Kumyks 7.9
    Lezgis 0.0
    Tabassarans 0.0
    Mountain Jews 0.0
    Central Asia
    Kurds (Kazahstan) 0.0
    Arabs (Kasashtan) 0.0
    Kazakhs 1.1
    Kyrgyz 0.7
    Mongolia 0.0
    South Asia
    Pakistan 0.0
    Parsis (India) 0.0
    This are the frequencies of U1 in West Eurasia according to Rootsi et al. So I don't think my statement was erroneous. Some Europeans having U1 here and there are quite normal. After all NW Caucasus is in Europe geographically speaking, and very close to Steppe from where various movements toward Europe are attested.

    I will go further and say that perhaps U1 didn't arrive in NW Caucasus directly from Anatolia but from Balkans via North of Black Sea. In this case it can be a movement related to Cucuteni Tripolye people. But this of course doesn't explain the ANE. The frequency of steppe R1a/R1b among them is not sufficient to explain the ANE also.
    Last edited by Arame; 10-15-2015 at 12:51 PM.

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    The highest level of P303>U1 is among the Shapsugs a Circassian tribe. More than 80%.

    These areas are a small part of historical Circassia, in addition to diaspora (Amman, Naour, Marj Al-hamam, Wadi Al Seer) Jordan, Turkey, Iraq, Israel (Kfar Kama), Syria, Europe, United States of America. The first Circassians to settle in Amman were from the Shapsug tribe and as a result the Shapsugs neighbourhood considered the oldest neighbourhood in the Capital Amman and was the down town of it,[1] however later other Circassians from the Kabardian, Abadzekh and Bzadoug tribes also came to Amman.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapsugs

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    Btw the U1 is just an approximation. It is quite possible that Caucasian specific U1 will have his own branch. The G-L1266 is a good candidate. http://yfull.com/tree/G-L1266/

    The data from this U1 Project favour that idea.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    Last edited by Arame; 10-15-2015 at 01:28 PM.

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    The most likely source for Caucasus ANE is a proto-Alarodian expansion from South-Central Asia (my guess).
    You see that it has made very EEF-like porto-Armenians shift in the direction of North-East Caucasians in the Bronze Age.
    Then with diffusion it has spread to proto-Kartvelians and NW-Caucasians.

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    R1b-Z103 and mtDNA? The G2-U1 could be founder effect.

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    According to Balanovsky NW Caucasians have various degree of R1a/R1b. But my impression is that their level is not sufficient to explain the ANE.
    Shapsugs R1a 4% , R1b 0%
    Abkhazians R1a 10.3 , R1b 12.1%
    Circassians R1a 19.7% , R1b 4.9%

    They also have some J2, L, Q also susceptible to bring some ANE.


    For the mtDNA part I don't know much.

    And this is the Yunusbayev 2011 with more data.samples, Abazins, Adyghe and Kabardins included.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl...sus-ychrom.png
    Last edited by Arame; 10-16-2015 at 02:06 PM.

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    Well my question was more about genetics than linguistics. But I agree that invasion from South Central Asia bringing ANE is very probable. Also I want to understand was the ANE natively present (with some hunter gatherers) before the EEF or this probable 'invasion' came after the EEF people established there.

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    In my opinion ANE component should split into 2 piece. One is actually near eastern the other one is step type and those 2 piece is irrelevant with each other. But its a fact that north Caucasian populations have step influence by protecting their own native character dominantly. Thats why you are being confused by looking into Y haploypes along north caucasians.

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