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Thread: Inferences on PIE genetic make-up via modern trends

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    Inferences on PIE genetic make-up via modern trends

    I refer readers to this recent publication by DNA Tribes, where they attempted some autosomal analyses of Eurasian populations.

    In it, they made this comment with regard to their "Anatolian-Caucasus" component and its distribution in Europe:

    Notably, Anatolia-South Caucasus percentages are lowest in sub-regions located at the geographical peripheries of Southwest and Northeast Europe, which would have been least affected by Neolithic expansions from near the Balkan Peninsula (see Figure 1). In addition, these low percentages are found in places where non-Indo-European languages are still spoken (Basque and Uralic languages). This suggests that the Anatolia-South Caucasus components might (in part) reflect genetic traces of Indo-European expansions since the Neolithic period. These expansions might have involved the mixed Neolithic buffer societies that expanded and dispersed from the Balkan Peninsula, who would have carried their Neolithic technologies and Indo-European languages into other parts of Europe.
    After reviewing some archaeological, linguistic and genetic data several months ago, I have considered the Indo-Europeans to represent a hybrid population of local hunter-gatherer-foragers above the Pontic-Caspian watershed with early Neolithic migrants from the Near-East, represented by West Asian and North European components (as per popular ADMIXTURE labels). To my surprise, DNA Tribes has produced a document of some worth in this context.

    I base this proposition on two simple observations:

    1) Elevated North European component in Central Asia (e.g. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan) and South Asia (select Pakistani and Indian groups), as well as certain West Asian ethnic groups (e.g. Persians, Kurds) to a lesser extent. Refer to the maps below.(Partially confounded by the established migration corridor between Northeast Europe and East Asia facilitating the movement of prehistoric hunter-gatherers. Therefore, some of the North European component found in that stretch of steppeland is likely to be pre-Indo-European in origin.)

    2) Elevated West Asian component among Indo-European-speaking Northeast Europeans and a lack of it in the outermost peripheries of Europe. Refer to this ACD Tool example I carried out several months ago on Vaźdhya, this DNA Tribes publication and the maps below. (Possibly confounded by established neolithic demic diffusion via Anatolia through to SE Europe. )

    As a side note, this proposition is further supported by the independent discovery of autosomal signals connecting either the North Caucasus or South-Central Asia with various parts of Europe by David W./Polako ("Interestingly, it looks from my experiments that Western Europeans do carry this [European-Volga-West Asian] influence at high levels, and I suspect it partly registers in them as "Gedrosia" in Dienekes' ADMIXTURE runs.") and Dienekes despite their opposing theories.

    Finally, the reality of ADMIXTURE interpretation (results may not always be literal representations of ancestry) makes it quite possible that the early Indo-Europeans contributed to both the North European and West Asian values seen across Eurasia.

    Two maps from the Dodecad K10a run to reinforce the point (although results from any project will suffice):



    Thoughts appreciated.

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    DNA Tribes' publication also says, intriguingly:
    ---
    For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
    ---

    Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.

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    This new DNA Tribes update looks quite good. I have to read it in more detail but from what I see so far is looks very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    DNA Tribes' publication also says, intriguingly:
    ---
    For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
    ---

    Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.

    Poland, again. Quelle surprise.
    Last edited by Yorkie; 01-03-2013 at 11:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    DNA Tribes' publication also says, intriguingly:
    ---
    For all studied sub-regions and populations in Europe, the largest non-local genetic component is Anatolia-South Caucasus. This component is largest in the Polish (87.6%) and Scythian (84.0%) sub-regions and smallest in the Urals (55.8%), Basque (45.2%), Finnic (31.0%) sub-regions.
    ---

    Since the publication identifies the Anatolian-South Caucasus component with Indo-Europeans, the quoted sentence above appears to be asserting that Indo-Europeanization was most complete in Poland and "Scythia" (presumably, Ukraine and European South Russia). One might then suspect that its continental expansion began from that region.
    How did they determine the autosomal make up of Scythians? And I guess it is more eastern Ukraine/SE Belarus than W Ukraine used. Didn't Scythians also stretch into the Urals region defined by DNA tibes(Scythian seemed to have extended pretty far north and Absehvo was also in the forest steepe.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    How did they determine the autosomal make up of Scythians? And I guess it is more eastern Ukraine/SE Belarus than W Ukraine used. Didn't Scythians also stretch into the Urals region defined by DNA tibes(Scythian seemed to have extended pretty far north and Absehvo was also in the forest steepe.)
    They may have used some Scythian auDNA STR data from 2009, but IIRC those samples were from East-Central Asia. If so, DNA Tribes has to be using modern populations in South Russia as a proxy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    They may have used some Scythian auDNA STR data from 2009, but IIRC those samples were from East-Central Asia. If so, DNA Tribes has to be using modern populations in South Russia as a proxy.
    That doesn't make that much sense to me. The R1a of the Slavs is different from Indo-Iranian R1a. M458 dominates the Pontic-Caspian steepe and it is pretty obvious that proto-Slavs come West from poland. Not to mention the plethora of other ydna like I1, I2, N1c, R1b-M269 found among Russians. Their origins isn't the same as the Scythians imo. Scythians probably lacked Mediterranian components while the modern inhabitants of their Scythian area have them often making up around 15 to 20% of their autosmal make up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    That doesn't make that much sense to me. The R1a of the Slavs is different from Indo-Iranian R1a. M458 dominates the Pontic-Caspian steepe and it is pretty obvious that proto-Slavs come West from poland. Not to mention the plethora of other ydna like I1, I2, N1c, R1b-M269 found among Russians. Their origins isn't the same as the Scythians imo. Scythians probably lacked Mediterranian components while the modern inhabitants of their Scythian area have them often making up around 15 to 20% of their autosmal make up.
    I was referring to autosomal DNA STR data, not Y-Chromosome STR's. When I looked into it years back, the south Siberian (presumed) Scythians matched the Kyrgyz better than any other extant population in both quality and quantity.

    If we are going to rely on ADMIXTURE results and/or terminology and continue reverse-extrapolating results from extant populations onto the extinct, it actually appears there was a Mediterranean component brought eastwards.

    Compare and contrast with Dienekes' Red Sea component from the same run, which - Despite a similar overlap across the Middle-East and North Africa as the Mediterranean component - barely made it through Turkey and Iran, let alone South-Central Asia and beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Poland, again. Quelle surprise.
    Not just Poland: lgmyaka is clearly indicating the effect is strongest in the entire area from around Poland in the west to somewhere around Kazakhstan or the far interior of Russia in the east, and from around the Volga or Urals in the north, south to around the Caucasus or Persia.

    I would say given the present distribution of IE languages

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f/IE1500BP.png

    and this chart of IE languages

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ropeanTree.svg

    an ultimate origin somewhere near the Black and Caspian seas seems most likely: but that doesn't mean Poland did not or could not have inherited a fair chunk of this autosomal DNA; indeed, it seems likely it did given geography and given where Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Iranian languages all meet,or at least at one point met.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    an ultimate origin somewhere near the Black and Caspian seas seems most likely: but that doesn't mean Poland did not or could not have inherited a fair chunk of this autosomal DNA; indeed, it seems likely it did given geography and given where Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Iranian languages all meet,or at least at one point met.
    I need to affirm this point with some further reading, but the presence of Iranic languages in the European steppe is something I'm not fully convinced by.

    As far as I'm aware, that conclusion was reached based on fragments of names and sketchy historical sources. I am only aware of the Scythians from central Asia (Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan) receiving special attention by the ancient Persians.

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