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Thread: Christians of Kerala - Thoughts on their origins ,history and evolution to present

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killergram View Post
    I been looking through the thread/s and I could not get any real confirmation on knanaya y haplogroups. Is there any R1bs among them?
    These are some we noted earlier from 23 and Me. Not all are confirmed though.

    R-M417 4
    R-M512. 1

    J-M241. 6
    J-M68. 2
    J-L25. 2
    J-L24. 2

    H-Z58. 5
    H-M69. 3

    L-M357. 11
    L-M22. 4
    L-M27. 9
    L-M2481 1

    C-P92. 6
    C-K96. 1
    C-M130. 1

    G-M342. 1

    Q-M346. 1
    Q-L205. 2
    Q-Y4801 - 1

    T-M70. 1

    O-F8. 1
    O-Page23 1
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-29-2020 at 02:05 PM.

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    These are some we noted earlier from 23 and Me. Not all are confirmed though.

    R-M417 4
    R-M512. 1

    J-M241. 6
    J-M68. 2
    J-L25. 2
    J-L24. 2

    H-Z58. 5
    H-M69. 3

    L-M357. 11
    L-M22. 4
    L-M27. 9
    L-M2481 1

    C-P92. 6
    C-K96. 1
    C-M130. 1

    G-M342. 1

    Q-M346. 1
    Q-L205. 2
    Q-Y4801 - 1

    T-M70. 1

    O-F8. 1
    O-Page23 1
    Do you think J-M68, J-L25, J-L24 and T-M70 is from the Near East?

  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    Claims of Jewish ancestry are a recent phenomena for both groups. Knanaya writers started this trend during the late 19th and early 20th century due to certain social/political factors of that era. Unfortunately it has caused a lot of confusion which persists even today.

    Meanwhile throughout the 20th century, most of the Syrian Christian church historians were very adamant about Brahmin conversions. But in the last 10-20 years the consensus seems to have shifted. Nowadays the most mainstream idea is that St Thomas came in search of the Jewish colonies of Kerala and that today’s Syrian Christians descend primarily from them. This was also fueled by the Mini Kariappa paper and the early hype surrounding the FTDNA project.
    It was really only during the late 19th/early 20th century that native Syrian Christian scholars started to publish their histories in print form. Before this point there were only native epigraphical records of the medieval era (8th to 13th century) and palm-leaf manuscripts of historic songs which narrate their traditional histories dating to the 16th/17th century (the Knanites have some that are older than this period as well). There were of course many European sources which recorded their histories between the 16th and 20th century as well. Much of what the Syrian Christian scholars wrote down in the 19th/20th century is really based on these historic songs which recorded their traditions supplemented by what foreign scholars wrote on them in the earlier centuries, so I would say it's not fair to say these were brand new histories.

    Knanites believe they were Jewish-Christian based on the fact that many early Syriac Christian tribes in Mesopatamia were in fact labeled as Judeo-Christian, a concept also reflected in their historic songs. The Nasrani quite rightfully label themselves as the descendants of 'high-caste' converts to Christianity. Not writing in support of casteism here but the Nasrani were undoubtedly considered a prominent community historically on par with the eminent Hindu Nairs. As we've seen through genetics as well, the Nasrani largely but not exclusively have 'Nair' ancestry. The origins song of the Nasrani known as the "Ramban Pattu" (17th century) quite clearly mentions who St. Thomas converted, interestingly the song doesn't exclusively state 'upper-caste' communities but the 19/20th century historians snubbed this and only wrote that Thomas converted the upper-caste Brahmins.

    Not taking traditional histories as fact here but oral traditions often have semblances of truth. The prominence of both the Knanaya and Nasrani is also highly reflected in the fact that both communities were given copper-plate grants, Indian deeds of socio-economic and religious rights that were only historically bestowed upon privileged communities. These copper plates are really what established both these communities along with the neighboring Cochin Jews as powerful merchant factions.

    Late 8th/Early 9th Century Plates of Knai Thoma (Knanaya):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._copper_plates

    Mid 9th Century Plates of Mar Sapor Iso (Syrian Christians):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quilon..._copper_plates

    Early 11th Century Plates of Joseph Rabban (Cochin Jews):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish...ates_of_Cochin
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-29-2020 at 08:14 PM.

  5. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Do you think J-M68, J-L25, J-L24 and T-M70 is from the Near East?
    I’m not sure but the East Asian haplogroups fascinate me. I’m not sure how prevalent these are in Kerala but during the medieval era it was very common for Chinese merchants to arrive, particularly in the city state of Kollam. Would be interesting if this was in relation to East Asian merchants

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    I’m not sure but the East Asian haplogroups fascinate me. I’m not sure how prevalent these are in Kerala but during the medieval era it was very common for Chinese merchants to arrive, particularly in the city state of Kollam. Would be interesting if this was in relation to East Asian merchants
    That makes sense. Its always amazing to me that somehow were allowed to reproduce with the local population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    It was really only during the late 19th/early 20th century that native Syrian Christian scholars started to publish their histories in print form. Before this point there were only native epigraphical records of the medieval era (8th to 13th century) and palm-leaf manuscripts of historic songs which narrate their traditional histories dating to the 16th/17th century (the Knanites have some that are older than this period as well). There were of course many European sources which recorded their histories between the 16th and 20th century as well. Much of what the Syrian Christian scholars wrote down in the 19th/20th century is really based on these historic songs which recorded their traditions supplemented by what foreign scholars wrote on them in the earlier centuries, so I would say it's not fair to say these were brand new histories.

    Knanites believe they were Jewish-Christian based on the fact that many early Syriac Christian tribes in Mesopatamia were in fact labeled as Judeo-Christian, a concept also reflected in their historic songs. The Nasrani quite rightfully label themselves as the descendants of 'high-caste' converts to Christianity. Not writing in support of casteism here but the Nasrani were undoubtedly considered a prominent community historically on par with the eminent Hindu Nairs. As we've seen through genetics as well, the Nasrani largely but not exclusively have 'Nair' ancestry. The origins song of the Nasrani known as the "Ramban Pattu" (17th century) quite clearly mentions who St. Thomas converted, interestingly the song doesn't exclusively state 'upper-caste' communities but the 19/20th century historians snubbed this and only wrote that Thomas converted the upper-caste Brahmins.

    Not taking traditional histories as fact here but oral traditions often have semblances of truth. The prominence of both the Knanaya and Nasrani is also highly reflected in the fact that both communities were given copper-plate grants, Indian deeds of socio-economic and religious rights that were only historically bestowed upon privileged communities. These copper plates are really what established both these communities along with the neighboring Cochin Jews as powerful merchant factions.

    Late 8th/Early 9th Century Plates of Knai Thoma (Knanaya):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._copper_plates

    Mid 9th Century Plates of Mar Sapor Iso (Syrian Christians):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quilon..._copper_plates

    Early 11th Century Plates of Joseph Rabban (Cochin Jews):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish...ates_of_Cochin
    Another counter narrative for Tarisapally plates.

    http://drkanam.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html?m=1

    I think the blogger himself belongs to Vellalar community and claims the grants were given to his community. What do you think about his arguments.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  9. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Another counter narrative for Tarisapally plates.

    http://drkanam.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html?m=1

    I think the blogger himself belongs to Vellalar community and claims the grants were given to his community. What do you think about his arguments.
    There are in fact Vellalar witnesses listed on the plate, in fact 17 of them. However translations of the 4th plate do mention Hebrew, Persian, and Arabic signatures. To my knowledge this 4th plate doesn't exist today and the one we have today is a later copy, a fact which was established by Kesavan Velluthat. The original forth plate which mentioned these signatures also mentioned a brief from the Knai Thoma cheppedu. Prominent scholars like M.G.S. Naryanan, Kesavan Velluthat, and Raghava Varier, all state it was given to Mar Sapor Iso (Sabrisho), a Persian Christian. I kind of feel like the blogger is just holding out for his own community. How the plates ended up in the hands of Christians, doesn't exactly add up with his points. One of the oldest epigraphs of Kerala in the hands of Christians, probably doesn't sit well with the more nationalist types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    There are in fact Vellalar witnesses listed on the plate, in fact 17 of them. However translations of the 4th plate do mention Hebrew, Persian, and Arabic signatures. To my knowledge this 4th plate doesn't exist today and the one we have today is a later copy, a fact which was established by Kesavan Velluthat. The original forth plate which mentioned these signatures also mentioned a brief from the Knai Thoma cheppedu. Prominent scholars like M.G.S. Naryanan, Kesavan Velluthat, and Raghava Varier, all state it was given to Mar Sapor Iso (Sabrisho), a Persian Christian. I kind of feel like the blogger is just holding out for his own community. How the plates ended up in the hands of Christians, doesn't exactly add up with his points. One of the oldest epigraphs of Kerala in the hands of Christians, probably doesn't sit well with the more nationalist types.
    Even if we accept his arguments his identification of Tharissapally as a jain temple cannot be accepted at all. Because the very word Tharissa is specifically used to mention Christians in different contexts. I would accept if the argument was that the rights were given to merchants in general rather than Christians in particular and Maruvan Sabrisho has acted as an agent.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  12. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Even if we accept his arguments his identification of Tharissapally as a jain temple cannot be accepted at all. Because the very word Tharissa is specifically used to mention Christians in different contexts. I would accept if the argument was that the rights were given to merchants in general rather than Christians in particular and Maruvan Sabrisho has acted as an agent.
    https://bibleatlas.org/tarshish.htm
    Likely the Hebrew period name for the Malabar coastal area.
    "once every three years came the navy of Tarshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks."
    "Jehoshaphat made ships of Tarshish to go to Ophir for gold"

    Ophir itself is considered to be further up the Konkan coast in the modern Maharashtra to Sindh area - Abhir.
    "in the time of Solomon (c. 920 BC), Ophir was thought of as being overseas. Gold, almug (or algum) wood (i.e., sandalwood), ivory, monkeys, and peacocks were procured there."
    https://www.britannica.com/place/Ophir

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    https://bibleatlas.org/tarshish.htm
    Likely the Hebrew period name for the Malabar coastal area.
    "once every three years came the navy of Tarshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks."
    "Jehoshaphat made ships of Tarshish to go to Ophir for gold"

    Ophir itself is considered to be further up the Konkan coast in the modern Maharashtra to Sindh area - Abhir.
    "in the time of Solomon (c. 920 BC), Ophir was thought of as being overseas. Gold, almug (or algum) wood (i.e., sandalwood), ivory, monkeys, and peacocks were procured there."
    https://www.britannica.com/place/Ophir
    There seems to be several opinions on where Tarshish is. I read in M.G.S. Narayanan’s “Perumals of Kerala” that Tarshish was a city in Syria and he suggests that this was possibly where the Kollam migrants came from. Syrian Christian scholars like Dr. Pius Malekandathil suggest instead that the group came from Iran I believe. Besides theories, the accepted rhetoric seems to be that the name of the church was Tarisa-Pally, Tarisa seems to be derived from Syriac meaning something along the line of reverence.
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-30-2020 at 10:50 PM.

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