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Thread: Christians of Kerala - Thoughts on their origins ,history and evolution to present

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    I don’t know about those particular churches. It is possible though that some of the older Syrian churches in and around kochi may have adopted the Latin form of worship during the height of Portuguese dominance. Among the Latin Catholics there’s a sub caste called the Ezhunootikkar(700s) who claim Syrian Christian heritage. They make up the majority of the Diocese of Cochin, meanwhile the rival sub caste called Anjootikar(500s) are concentrated in the Diocese of Alapuzha. I’ve also heard speculation that the church of Arthunkal may have also been a Syrian parish originally.

    Surprisingly, the dissident movement led by the Archdeacon was very strong in the Kingdom of Cochin despite the heavy Portuguese presence. Udayamperoor remained firmly Catholic because of the Knanaya presence but the neighboring churches like Kandanad, Karingachira, Pallikkara, Mulanthuruthy and Tripunithara are all Jacobite strongholds. This influence extends south through Piravom and into parts of Northwest Kottayam district like Chempu, Peruva, Veloore, etc. Just east of these places become heavily Catholic because they fall within the sphere of Kaduthuruthy and Kuruvilangadu which were Catholic strongholds.
    I don’t know anything about Thevalakkara, Kundara area as I’ve never had to travel that far south. But many churches switched allegiances back and forth after the Coonan Cross Oath. Some prominent examples include Puthupally, Manarcadu, and Arakuzha.
    The churches of Kollam are far away from the Christian centers of Kochi and Angamaly. So they were lagging behind in the updates about the developments up north. It was said that Kollam already had a church with alligeance towards pope founded by Jordanus Catalani. Though references said that he had converted around 3000 people in the Kollam by the time Portugese couldn't find any big church but instead few families and main centres was around ashtamudi Kayal in Thevalakkara,Kallada ,Kundara and Kottarakara and those people were following east Syriac liturgy not Latin.

    These churches were largely ignored by the pre Portugese religious centres at Angamale and Kochi. So when Bishop Garcia visited them post synod of diamper they happily accepted him and he was able to convince them of the Latin heritage of Kollam. Maybe he genuinely believed they were part of the Church founded by Catalani. They even adopted Latin liturgy later in time and didn't participate in coonan cross oath too. Later the archdeacon faction tried to bring the many churches into his side when majority of the churches wanted to remain catholic. His worked among southern churches whose link to portugese and Angamaly was weaker and successfully bought them back to Syrian Rite Orthodox from Latin Rite Catholic. It was at that time the Kollam churches are founded by Kandeeshangal narrative got stronger and they remained strong with Jacobite faction from then on.. So in effect they shifted from East Syriac -> Latin -> West Syriac.
     

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    Finding the history of the Church during the Synod of Diamper and Coonan cross oath time is little tricky as different faction of Nasranis try to push their version and even the European versions seems to be pro-portugese and pro Catholic when they try to present the facts.

    Note:- I have mentioned Manarcad church as Syro Malabar in the list wrongly but it is a Jacobite church
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    List of churches in kerala during the time of synod of diamper. List is incomplete since there was at least 105 churches at the time. For reference i have included the name mentioned by Anthony de Gouvea in his work Jornada in 1606.

    Sl No Name as per Jornada Name Place Year of Founding Present Affiliation? District
    1 Holy Trinity Cathedral Church Kannur 1505 AD Latin Kannur
    2 Calecut Mother of God Church Kozhikode 1513 AD Latin Kozhikode
    3 Chatacolengere Arthat St Mary's Church Kunnamkulam 10th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Thrissur
    4 Mutem St Thomas Forane Church Mattom 10th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    5 Pallur Palayoor St Thomas Church Palayoor 1st Century? Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    6 North Pudukad Church Puthukad 5th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    7 Anamaque St Mary's Church Enamavu 495 AD Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    8 St Mary's Church,Puthenchira Kodungalloor 5th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    9 St Antony's Church Pazhuvil 883AD Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    10 St Mary's Church Chalakudy 6th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    11 St Mary's Church,Koratty Koratty 14th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    12 St Thomas Church,Ambazhakad Ambazhakad 4th Century Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    13 Cranganor St Thomas Church Kodungalloor AD52? Syro-Malabar Thrissur
    14 Angamale St Mary's Church Angamaly 409 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    15 Agaparambim Mar Sabor Afroth Church,Akaparamba Angamaly 825 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    16 St Mary's Church , Moozhikulam Angamaly 650 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    17 Holy Cross Church,Manjapra Angamaly 14th Century Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    18 Chegure St Mary's Church Chowara 1025 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    19 Mangate St Mary's Church,Alengad Aluva 14th Century Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    20 Canhur St Mary's Forane Church Kanjoor 1001 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    21 Maleatur St Thomas Church Malayattoor 9th Century Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    22 Nhagrica St Mary's Church Njarackal 1451 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    23 Vaipin Cruz Milagres Church,Ochanthuruth Vypin 1573 AD Latin Ernakulam
    24 Paru Kottakavu St Thomas Church North Paravoor 1st Century? Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    25 Vaipicotta Holy Cross Church,Chendamangalam North Paravoor 1577 AD Latin Ernakulam
    26 Repelim St George Church,Edapally Ernakulam 593 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    27 St Mary's Church,Broadway,Ernakulam Ernakulam 1112 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    28 Cochim St Lawrence Church,Edakochi Kochi 1504 AD Latin Ernakulam
    29 St Louis Church,Mundamveli Kochi 9th Century Latin Ernakulam
    30 Our Lady of Life Church,Mattanchery Kochi 16th Century Latin Ernakulam
    31 Codamangalao St Thomas Cheriapally Kothamangalam 1455 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    32 Codamangalao St Mary's Valiapally Kothamangalam 1340 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    33 St Mary's Church Kuruppampady 14th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    34 Pallurte St Mary's Church Palluruthy 1191 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    35 St Thomas Church Kuthiathode 1301 AD Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    36 St Peters and Paul Church Kolenchery 7th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    37 Narame St Mary's Church,Nadama Tripunithura 12th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    38 St George's Church Karingachira Tripunithura 722 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    39 St George's Church Kadamattom 9th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    40 Aracore St Mary's Church ,Arakuzha Muvattupuzha 7th Century Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    41 Malucompil St Thomas Forane Church,Mylakompu Thodupuzha 6th Century Syro-Malabar Idukki
    42 Diamper Synod of Diamper Church Udayamperoor 10th Century Knanaya Catholic Ernakulam
    43 Mulanturte St Thomas Church Mulanthururthy 1110 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    44 Prouto St Mary's Cathedral Piravom 7th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    45 Paru(Thekken) St John the Baptist Church South Parur 8th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Ernakulam
    46 Carturte St Mary's Knanaya Church Kadathuruthy 5th Century Knanaya Catholic Kottayam
    47 Nagpili Holy Ghost Forane Church, Muttuchira Kadathuruthy 510 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    48 St Gervasis abd Prothasis Church,Kothanallur Ettumanoor 826 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    49 St Mary's Church,Athirampuzha Ettumanoor 835 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    50 Baiqueta St Joseph's Forane Church Vaikom 1391 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    51 St Mary's Church,Kudavechoor Vechoor 1463 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    52 Pallipurao St Mary's Church,Pallipuram Cherthala 1st Century? Syro-Malabar Alappuzha
    53 Muttao St Mary's Church,Muttam Cherthala 1023 AD Syro-Malabar Alappuzha
    54 Cottete St Mary's Church Kottayam 1579 AD Knanaya Catholic Kottayam
    55 Coramalur St Mary's Church,Kudamaloor Kottayam 12th Century Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    56 Marquitil St Mary's Church, Manarcad 16th Century Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    57 Baragore St John the Baptist Church,Vadagara Koothattukulam 10th Century Syro-Malabar Ernakulam
    58 Changanagere St Mary's Cathedral Changanassery 1177 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    59 Marubuli St Mary's Church Nediasala 999 AD Syro-Malabar Idukki
    60 Turubule ??
    61 Conengate St Mary's Church Kuruvilangad 105 AD? Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    62 St Mary's Church,Kadaplamattom Pala 10th Century Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    63 Palla St Thomas Church,Pala Pala 1002 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    64 Holy Cross Church,Cherpunkal Pala 1111 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    65 Ignapeli ??
    66 Carathnarat St Mary's Church Bharananganam 1004 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    67 Iratur St George's Church, Aruvithura Erattupetta 4th Century Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    68 Canharapaly St Mary's Church Kanhirapally 1449 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    69 St Peter and Paul Church Elanji 14th Century Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    70 St Augustine Forane Church Ramapuram 1450 AD Syro-Malabar Kottayam
    71 Poligunde St Mary's Church,Pulinkunnu Kuttanad 1557 AD Syro-Malabar Alappuzha
    72 St Mary's Church Champakulam Kalloorkad 427 AD Syro-Malabar Alappuzha
    73 Naranao St Mary's Church Niranom 1st Century? Orthodox/Jacobite Pathanamthitta
    74 St George's Church Cheppad 13th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    75 St Thomas Church,Karthigapally Karthigapally 10th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    76 Arthunkal Church Alappuzha 1584 AD Latin Alappuzha
    77 Batemana St Mary's Church Venmony 14th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    78 Changanor Old Syrian Church Chengannur 5th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    79 Mauelicare St Mary's Church Mavelikkara 943 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    80 Caleculao Kadeesa Orthodox Church Kayamkulam 825 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Alappuzha
    81 Truilar St George's Church,Paliakara Thiruvalla 1st Century? Orthodox/Jacobite Pathanamthitta
    82 Tuumpone St Mary's Church Thumpamon 717 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Pathanamthitta
    83 St Mary's Church Kalloopara 1339 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Pathanamthitta
    84 St Thomas Church Kozhencherry 1599 AD Marthoma Pathanamthitta
    85 Coulao Kadeesa Syrian Church Kollam 1519 AD Orthodox/Jacobite Kollam
    86 Our Lady of Purification Church ,Thangassery Kollam 1st Century? Latin Kollam
    87 Gundara St Thomas Church Kundara 7th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Kollam
    88 Tuelacare St Mary's Church Thevalakkara 4th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Kollam
    89 Catare St Mary's Church,West Kallada Kallada 9th Century Orthodox/Jacobite Kollam
    This is awesome, thank you. I think it’s plausible that the traditional dates are all likely in Kollavarsham. In this way it’s likely C.E. + 825, however this might not be the case for all of them. This would put almost all of the pre-Portuguese era churches in the late medieval era, which is logical. Again, might not be the case for all of them.

    Adding to the ones you’ve listed, the following are verified as Knanaya Churches during the era from Do Couto, Francis Ros, and Sebastiani:

    Kaduthuruthy St. Mary’s - 5th Century? (Knanaya Catholic) “Carturte”
    Udiamperoor All Saints - 10th Century? (Knanaya Catholic) “Diamper”
    Kottayam St. Mary’s - 1550 (Knanaya Jacobite) “Cottete”
    Chunkom/Thodupuzha St. Mary’s - 1579 (Knanaya Catholic) “Turigore”
    Kallisserry St. Mary’s - 1580 (Knanaya Jacobite)

    The community was called “Ancharapallikar” (Owners of Five and Half Churches) for this reason. It’s really easy to track all modern Knanaya to these churches and as Rusty stated they all came as refugees from Kodungallur to their existing settlements.

    Do Couto states the community had three in Kodungallur built by Knai Thoma in the name of St. Mary, St. Thomas, and St. Kuriakose. These undoubtedly existed for the reason that there’s a surviving primary source from 1301 mentioning St. Kuriakose Church, Kodungallur. However this one along with St. Mary’s seems to have been destroyed in the battle of 1524 or perhaps even before. It’s seems that the Knanaya were more affected then the Nasrani in the city during the 1524 battle because it was the southern side of the city (where the port was) which was destroyed. Mar Jacob Abuna’s letters give us a feel for the situation in which he states that the Knanaya settlement here was entirely destroyed and the Christians were all living in great poverty due to the Moors burning their homes and churches.

    Do Couto also states in 1611 that the Portuguese now “have” the St. Thomas Church. It’s believed that the modern Latin Kottapuam Cathedral in Kodungallur was this St. Thomas Church or at least built/rebuilt on the same land.

    I remember reading in a primary source from the era that there were also Syrian churches in Kollam and I believe Kozhikode that were destroyed by Portuguese bombardment. Thank you again for this list.
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-12-2020 at 04:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    This is awesome, thank you. I think it’s plausible that the traditional dates are all likely in Kollavarsham. In this way it’s likely C.E. + 825, however this might not be the case for all of them. This would put almost all of the pre-Portuguese era churches in the late medieval era, which is logical. Again, might not be the case for all of them.

    Adding to the ones you’ve listed, the following are verified as Knanaya Churches during the era from Do Couto, Francis Ros, and Sebastiani:

    Kaduthuruthy St. Mary’s - 5th Century? (Knanaya Catholic) “Carturte”
    Udiamperoor All Saints - 10th Century? (Knanaya Catholic) “Diamper”
    Kottayam St. Mary’s - 1550 (Knanaya Jacobite) “Cottete”
    Chunkom/Thodupuzha St. Mary’s - 1579 (Knanaya Catholic) “Turigore”
    Kallisserry St. Mary’s - 1580 (Knanaya Jacobite)

    The community was called “Ancharapallikar” (Owners of Five and Half Churches) for this reason. It’s really easy to track all modern Knanaya to these churches and as Rusty stated they all came as refugees from Kodungallur to their existing settlements.

    Do Couto states the community had three in Kodungallur built by Knai Thoma in the name of St. Mary, St. Thomas, and St. Kuriakose. These undoubtedly existed for the reason that there’s a surviving primary source from 1301 mentioning St. Kuriakose Church, Kodungallur. However this one along with St. Mary’s seems to have been destroyed in the battle of 1524 or perhaps even before. It’s seems that the Knanaya were more affected then the Nasrani in the city during the 1524 battle because it was the southern side of the city (where the port was) which was destroyed. Mar Jacob Abuna’s letters give us a feel for the situation in which he states that the Knanaya settlement here was entirely destroyed and the Christians were all living in great poverty due to the Moors burning their homes and churches.

    Do Couto also states in 1611 that the Portuguese now “have” the St. Thomas Church. It’s believed that the modern Latin Kottapuam Cathedral in Kodungallur was this St. Thomas Church or at least built/rebuilt on the same land.

    I remember reading in a primary source from the era that there were also Syrian churches in Kollam and I believe Kozhikode that were destroyed by Portuguese bombardment. Thank you again for this list.
    So there are two Kottayam churches during that time. St Mary's Orthodox Valiapally belonging to Knanaya built in 1550 AD and St Mary's Orthodox Cheriapally built in 1579 AD.
    Anthony de Gouvea's Turubule must be the Chunkom church.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    Agreed, but pork consumption among Syrian Christians has more to do with denominational allegiance than it does with being Jewish or non jewish. Catholics are known to indulge in pork and liquor to a greater degree than jacobite/orthodox, due to the influence of Europeans. Likewise when the mulanthuruthy synod was held, the jacobite patriarch reiterated that pork and wine should be avoided for feasts and anniversaries.
    Factors like social class and geography also play a part.
    Pork was avoided by many Syrian Christians especially by Jacobite/Orthodox but some families traditionally avoided beef too. Both of my paternal grandparents family abstained from both beef and pork.
     

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    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
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    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    The churches of Kollam are far away from the Christian centers of Kochi and Angamaly. So they were lagging behind in the updates about the developments up north. It was said that Kollam already had a church with alligeance towards pope founded by Jordanus Catalani. Though references said that he had converted around 3000 people in the Kollam by the time Portugese couldn't find any big church but instead few families and main centres was around ashtamudi Kayal in Thevalakkara,Kallada ,Kundara and Kottarakara and those people were following east Syriac liturgy not Latin.

    These churches were largely ignored by the pre Portugese religious centres at Angamale and Kochi. So when Bishop Garcia visited them post synod of diamper they happily accepted him and he was able to convince them of the Latin heritage of Kollam. Maybe he genuinely believed they were part of the Church founded by Catalani. They even adopted Latin liturgy later in time and didn't participate in coonan cross oath too. Later the archdeacon faction tried to bring the many churches into his side when majority of the churches wanted to remain catholic. His worked among southern churches whose link to portugese and Angamaly was weaker and successfully bought them back to Syrian Rite Orthodox from Latin Rite Catholic. It was at that time the Kollam churches are founded by Kandeeshangal narrative got stronger and they remained strong with Jacobite faction from then on.. So in effect they shifted from East Syriac -> Latin -> West Syriac.
    That’s interesting I have heard about Catalani but didn’t know that the Christians in those parts adopted the Latin liturgy.

    The southern settlements have some unique stories tied to them. As you said, there was an ancient Jewish settlement in Kollam which may have been Christianized over time. There’s also the arrival of Kandeeshangal and some Christian settlers at Kollam, with many families in those regions claiming descent from them. Another forgotten group is the Christian community of Thiruvathamkodu. They are mentioned in the canons of the Synod of Diamper as a small community isolated from the main body of Christians and left without proper pastoral care.

    Jesuit missionary John Mary Campori mentions them in one of his letters (1618):

    “There we received letters from the Lord Archbishop and Father Provincial, ordering Father John de Sousa to go to Madura, and myself to visit an old settlement of St. Thomas Christians in Travancore, about twenty - five Malabar leagues from Coulam. Those poor sheep belonging to the fold of the Serra, were deprived of the spiritual nourishment of Christian doctrine and the Sacraments, and were in great need of being comforted. The name of this village is TARIDACAL. Although few in number (between men and women they do not reach 200), they are considered by the pagans as of noble birth and of high standing. They have free entrance to the palace, their office being to supply all the needs of the king: so that they have no intercourse, not only with low caste people, but even with Portuguese and the other St. Thomas Christians But they follow their civil customs in everything. Never on the Travancore Coast do they allow our Fathers to enter their churches, because they deal with Mucuvers and other low caste people. They feel the greatest aversion to our usages and our garment...”

    It seems that they were very strict on Caste laws and would not meet with missionaries or with the other Syrian Christians for these reasons.


    Leslie Brown wrote about them as well (1956):

    “Dhairyaykal were distinguished from all other Christians in language, in many cultural practices, and in dress until two generations ago. The men used to retain the Kutumi or single lock of hair on the crown of the head, and sacred thread was put on the male babies after baptism. The women wore the pandiada and the other Hindu ornaments. They have now assimilated themselves to the Jacobite community and intermarried with them”

    It’s said that they used the surname Pillai and were descendants of traders from Tamil Nadu. They assimilated into the Jacobite Syrian Christian communities of Kollam, Kayamkulam and Mavelikara over the past few centuries and no longer retain a distinct identity.
    Last edited by Rustyshakelford; 10-17-2020 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    That’s interesting I have heard about Catalani but didn’t know that the Christians in those parts adopted the Latin liturgy.

    The southern settlements have some unique stories tied to them. As you said, there was an ancient Jewish settlement in Kollam which may have been Christianized over time. There’s also the arrival of Kandeeshangal and some Christian settlers at Kollam, with many families in those regions claiming descent from them. Another forgotten group is the Christian community of Thiruvathamkodu. They are mentioned in the canons of the Synod of Diamper as a small community isolated from the main body of Christians and left without proper pastoral care.

    Jesuit missionary John Mary Campori mentions them in one of his letters (1618):

    “There we received letters from the Lord Archbishop and Father Provincial, ordering Father John de Sousa to go to Madura, and myself to visit an old settlement of St. Thomas Christians in Travancore, about twenty - five Malabar leagues from Coulam. Those poor sheep belonging to the fold of the Serra, were deprived of the spiritual nourishment of Christian doctrine and the Sacraments, and were in great need of being comforted. The name of this village is TARIDACAL. Although few in number (between men and women they do not reach 200), they are considered by the pagans as of noble birth and of high standing. They have free entrance to the palace, their office being to supply all the needs of the king: so that they have no intercourse, not only with low caste people, but even with Portuguese and the other St. Thomas Christians But they follow their civil customs in everything. Never on the Travancore Coast do they allow our Fathers to enter their churches, because they deal with Mucuvers and other low caste people. They feel the greatest aversion to our usages and our garment...”

    It seems that they were very strict on Caste laws and would not meet with missionaries or with the other Syrian Christians for these reasons.


    Leslie Brown wrote about them as well (1956):

    “Dhairyaykal were distinguished from all other Christians in language, in many cultural practices, and in dress until two generations ago. The men used to retain the Kutumi or single lock of hair on the crown of the head, and sacred thread was put on the male babies after baptism. The women wore the pandiada and the other Hindu ornaments. They have now assimilated themselves to the Jacobite community and intermarried with them”

    It’s said that they used the surname Pillai and were descendants of traders from Tamil Nadu. They assimilated into the Jacobite Syrian Christian communities of Kollam, Kayamkulam and Mavelikara over the past few centuries and no longer retain a distinct identity.
    The Church Catalani started might have disappeared within 2 or 3 generations for the lack of further engagement from Rome. Either they might have went back to hindu fold or merged into with Syrians of Ashtamudi region leaving Kollam. Portuguese couldn't find a thriving church in Kollam except few families who might or might not have any relationship with Catalani Church.

    Dhairyaykal Christians is an interesting case. I Couldn't find much information regarding them. But a story about them is of 64 Vellala families converted by St Thomas. They were also called Tharisaykal which could mean people of the cross.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to BMG For This Useful Post:

     Rustyshakelford (10-18-2020)

  15. #58
    Registered Users
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    790
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y7
    mtDNA (M)
    R30a1c
    Y-DNA (M)
    L-M357
    mtDNA (P)
    J1b1a1

    https://jeephilip.blogspot.com/2012/...ppedu.html?m=1

    The above blogger suggest that the Kurakkeni Kollam might not be the present day Kollam but it might be in the banks of Ashtamudi. It is entirely possible that Christians of Kollam never went from Kollam but the new Kollam was changed to a different place. It is also to be noted that Niranam is also considered a port town despite it being in the bank of Pamba river at the point of meeting with Manimala River.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  16. #59
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    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    Knanaya
    Nationality
    Indian
    Y-DNA (P)
    QM242
    mtDNA (M)
    M33a2

    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    The Church Catalani started might have disappeared within 2 or 3 generations for the lack of further engagement from Rome. Either they might have went back to hindu fold or merged into with Syrians of Ashtamudi region leaving Kollam. Portuguese couldn't find a thriving church in Kollam except few families who might or might not have any relationship with Catalani Church.

    Dhairyaykal Christians is an interesting case. I Couldn't find much information regarding them. But a story about them is of 64 Vellala families converted by St Thomas. They were also called Tharisaykal which could mean people of the cross.
    T.K. Joseph writes that Tarisaykkal were the Christians of Tarisapally, which could possibly mean the descendants of the Kollam migration. He also mentions the Dhariyakkal, which were Tamil speaking Nasrani near Thiruvamcode that were highly respected. The term Tarutayakkal was a general term for all Christians, the Nasrani even called the the Portuguese Tarutayakkal. T.K. Joseph writes that it’s derived from a Syriac term meaning “The Orthodox People”. This term is also found in alot of the old Knanaya songs for Christians in general usually stated as “Tarutayakkal Genum”. Another sub-group we had were the Kunnamkulam Nasrani whom were also highly respected and claim a Jewish descent like the Knas.

    Really interesting that by the late 19th/Early 20th century all of these groups for the most part assimilated together. Nonetheless its fascinating that there was so much, we could say, ethno-regional diversity among the Nasrani with sub-communities existing in different regions with their own cultures and identities. In this way at least from what we know the following groups existed:

    Tarisaykkal: Christians of Tarisapally, possibly/likely the Kollam migrants, believed to have integrated with the old Mar Thoma Nasrani
    Dhariyakkal: Thiruvamcode Tamil speaking Nasrani, had their own unique identity and culture
    Kunnamkulam Nasrani: Highly respected community with their own culture, claim a Jewish descent
    Knanaya/Thekkumbhagar: Christians of Knai Thoma who settled in Kodungallur, distinct culture/identity as well
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-18-2020 at 07:41 PM.

  17. #60
    Registered Users
    Posts
    790
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y7
    mtDNA (M)
    R30a1c
    Y-DNA (M)
    L-M357
    mtDNA (P)
    J1b1a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas48 View Post
    T.K. Joseph writes that Tarisaykkal were the Christians of Tarisapally, which could possibly mean the descendants of the Kollam migration. He also mentions the Dhariyakkal, which were Tamil speaking Nasrani near Thiruvamcode that were highly respected. The term Tarutayakkal was a general term for all Christians, the Nasrani even called the the Portuguese Tarutayakkal. T.K. Joseph writes that it’s derived from a Syriac term meaning “The Orthodox People”. This term is also found in alot of the old Knanaya songs for Christians in general usually stated as “Tarutayakkal Genum”. Another sub-group we had were the Kunnamkulam Nasrani whom were also highly respected and claim a Jewish descent like the Knas.

    Really interesting that by the late 19th/Early 20th century all of these groups for the most part assimilated together. Nonetheless its fascinating that there was so much, we could say, ethno-regional diversity among the Nasrani with sub-communities existing in different regions with their own cultures and identities. In this way at least from what we know the following groups existed:

    Tarisaykkal: Christians of Tarisapally, possibly/likely the Kollam migrants, believed to have integrated with the old Mar Thoma Nasrani
    Dhariyakkal: Thiruvamcode Tamil speaking Nasrani, had their own unique identity and culture
    Kunnamkulam Nasrani: Highly respected community with their own culture, claim a Jewish descent
    Knanaya/Thekkumbhagar: Christians of Knai Thoma who settled in Kodungallur, distinct culture/identity as well
    I think both Dhariyakkal and Tharisaykal refer to the Thiruvithamkod community only. Though the Thevalakkara church is called Tharissapally I don't think the community as a whole were called Tharisaykal.

    I would say at least five distinct early settlements were there for Nasranis even excluding Thiruvithamkod. Along with Kunnamkulam, Kodungallur,Niranam and Kollam I would also include Tripunithura. Kunnamkulam,Kollam and Kodungallur got more important because of these were mainly merchant communities.The other two are mainly farming community. I would also say Kodungallur community was most successful and spread wide and far and others have their influence restricted to nearby areas.

    You might already know that I am not pro -St Thomas conversion story and do not envisage anything substantial at least until 5th century.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to BMG For This Useful Post:

     Thomas48 (10-19-2020)

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