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Thread: Christians of Kerala - Thoughts on their origins ,history and evolution to present

  1. #61
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    Also I would discount Jewish heritage in Syrian Christians at least as a major contributor. I have done some genetic analysis in early days with samples I had with me which included Syrian Christian samples from Kunnamkulam and Kollam. Only 1 who possibly showed some Jewish ancestry was from Chertala. On the other hand all four Behar Cochin jews I had showed some ancestry from Mizrachim groups.
    I am skeptic but I would like a scientific study done on the same for better conclusions.I did not have a Knanaya sample in my runs. My feeling is they too will not show any Jewish ancestry.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BMG For This Useful Post:

     Rustyshakelford (10-19-2020),  Thomas48 (10-19-2020)

  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Also I would discount Jewish heritage in Syrian Christians at least as a major contributor. I have done some genetic analysis in early days with samples I had with me which included Syrian Christian samples from Kunnamkulam and Kollam. Only 1 who possibly showed some Jewish ancestry was from Chertala. On the other hand all four Behar Cochin jews I had showed some ancestry from Mizrachim groups.
    I am skeptic but I would like a scientific study done on the same for better conclusions.I did not have a Knanaya sample in my runs. My feeling is they too will not show any Jewish ancestry.
    It’s likely not gonna show up for the Knanaya either. The one factor that surprises me tho is the striking cultural connection Knanaya have to Cochin Jews, some Knanaya songs even mentioning Joseph Rabban, a song of the Cochinis alluding to Knai Thoma as well but this could at the same time simply be due to these small minorities living closely in Kodungallur and cultural exchange taking place.

    And I agree it’s more than likely that all the original prominent settlements were the coastal city centers. It’s interesting that even though the St. Thomas arrival may just be legend, Pantaneus does in fact note the existence of Christian communities on the Western Coast of India in 190 C.E.
    Last edited by Thomas48; 10-19-2020 at 07:52 PM.

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     BMG (10-20-2020)

  5. #63
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    India United States of America Kingdom of Cochin Kingdom of Travancore
    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Also I would discount Jewish heritage in Syrian Christians at least as a major contributor. I have done some genetic analysis in early days with samples I had with me which included Syrian Christian samples from Kunnamkulam and Kollam. Only 1 who possibly showed some Jewish ancestry was from Chertala. On the other hand all four Behar Cochin jews I had showed some ancestry from Mizrachim groups.
    I am skeptic but I would like a scientific study done on the same for better conclusions.I did not have a Knanaya sample in my runs. My feeling is they too will not show any Jewish ancestry.
    Claims of Jewish ancestry are a recent phenomena for both groups. Knanaya writers started this trend during the late 19th and early 20th century due to certain social/political factors of that era. Unfortunately it has caused a lot of confusion which persists even today.

    Meanwhile throughout the 20th century, most of the Syrian Christian church historians were very adamant about Brahmin conversions. But in the last 10-20 years the consensus seems to have shifted. Nowadays the most mainstream idea is that St Thomas came in search of the Jewish colonies of Kerala and that today’s Syrian Christians descend primarily from them. This was also fueled by the Mini Kariappa paper and the early hype surrounding the FTDNA project.
    Y-DNA: Hidden Content
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    Yfull Id: YF73655

  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    Claims of Jewish ancestry are a recent phenomena for both groups. Knanaya writers started this trend during the late 19th and early 20th century due to certain social/political factors of that era. Unfortunately it has caused a lot of confusion which persists even today.

    Meanwhile throughout the 20th century, most of the Syrian Christian church historians were very adamant about Brahmin conversions. But in the last 10-20 years the consensus seems to have shifted. Nowadays the most mainstream idea is that St Thomas came in search of the Jewish colonies of Kerala and that today’s Syrian Christians descend primarily from them. This was also fueled by the Mini Kariappa paper and the early hype surrounding the FTDNA project.
    Along with St Thomas there is also the tradition of St Bartholomew. An East Indian Catholic friend used to tell their church is originally established by St Bartholomew so their community is also as old as Thomas Christians of Kerala.He told existing community merged with people newly converted by Portugese to form east Indian Catholics. Several visitors prior to Portugese era have also mentioned the presence of Christian community in Kalyan.
    What do you think about this?
    Last edited by BMG; 10-21-2020 at 03:29 PM.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  7. #65
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    Do Nasrani christians (non-Knanaya) have any middle eastern ancestry? From what I've heard, they are descendants of Nair Hindus and Brahmins who converted to Christianity 2000 years ago.

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelen1938 View Post
    Do Nasrani christians (non-Knanaya) have any middle eastern ancestry? From what I've heard, they are descendants of Nair Hindus and Brahmins who converted to Christianity 2000 years ago.
    They are mostly of local ancestry and genetically more closer to nairs. There would have been conversions from different castes not only from nairs and namboothiris. The middle eastern ancestry can range from 0-5% from autosomal results. From YDna perspective we have some middle eastern probable derived haplogroups like J-L283,E-V13,E-M34,R-Z2103,J-L243,G-M285,Q-L245 etc. combined they would make up around 10%. Mtdna side seems to be completely indian. So whatever middle eastern ancestry they have is male mediated.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

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