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Thread: Christians of Kerala - Thoughts on their origins ,history and evolution to present

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    yes pork is a popular dish
    Traditionally people with Jewish connection try to avoid eating pork. This is just my observation.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTM View Post
    Traditionally people with Jewish connection try to avoid eating pork. This is just my observation.
    Agreed, but pork consumption among Syrian Christians has more to do with denominational allegiance than it does with being Jewish or non jewish. Catholics are known to indulge in pork and liquor to a greater degree than jacobite/orthodox, due to the influence of Europeans. Likewise when the mulanthuruthy synod was held, the jacobite patriarch reiterated that pork and wine should be avoided for feasts and anniversaries.
    Factors like social class and geography also play a part.

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  5. #33
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    Do any other Christian groups consume alcohol like Knanaya? Jews tend to drink too. Jews even encourage drinking and for Knanaya if you don't drink, you are not a man. Lol!

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chekkan View Post
    Do any other Christian groups consume alcohol like Knanaya? Jews tend to drink too. Jews even encourage drinking and for Knanaya if you don't drink, you are not a man. Lol!
    Malayalis often tend to develop drinking habit due to peer pressure. Churches in Kerala officially do not promote drinking but it is more of a personal preference .
    Last edited by BMG; 04-28-2020 at 05:43 PM.

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  9. #35
    There is a group of Knanaya J2 who are Y haplogroup J-L283.

    I wrote about it here J-L283 Syrian Christians of India descend from J-Y146401 that lived in the Levant 900 BC and likely Europe before that

    Specifically they are J-Y146401. Here you can see their closest relatives.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

    Based on ancient samples in J-Z38240 and J-Z615 being found in Vrgorac, Croatia (sample I4331, 1600 BC) and Mokrin, North Serbia (sample 163, 1800-2100 BC) respectively, this lineage has Bronze Age origins in the Balkans.

    It is interesting that the closest male line relatives of these Knanaya are Lebanese Maronites. This could imply that these Knanaya's ancestors were living in the Levant prior to having migrated to Kerala.

    If another Knanaya who is J-L283 does an NGS test, the YFull analysis will result in a TMRCA, which will be interesting for the migration theories.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhyloGeographer View Post
    There is a group of Knanaya J2 who are Y haplogroup J-L283.

    I wrote about it here J-L283 Syrian Christians of India descend from J-Y146401 that lived in the Levant 900 BC and likely Europe before that

    Specifically they are J-Y146401. Here you can see their closest relatives.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

    Based on ancient samples in J-Z38240 and J-Z615 being found in Vrgorac, Croatia (sample I4331, 1600 BC) and Mokrin, North Serbia (sample 163, 1800-2100 BC) respectively, this lineage has Bronze Age origins in the Balkans.

    It is interesting that the closest male line relatives of these Knanaya are Lebanese Maronites. This could imply that these Knanaya's ancestors were living in the Levant prior to having migrated to Kerala.

    If another Knanaya who is J-L283 does an NGS test, the YFull analysis will result in a TMRCA, which will be interesting for the migration theories.
    Do you have any confirmation that he is knanaya. As far as I know the J-L283 positive samples are Syrian Christian but not knanaya.

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  12. #37
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    Earlier settlements of Syrian Christians

    The extend of the Syrian Christian settlements during the pre colonial era was from Kunnamkulam in the north to Kollam in the south. The settlements was centered around few major towns and its outskirts. Their resided in the places little bit inland with easy access to the ports. Very few of the settlement were interior and none in the ghat regions. I am trying to find the cultural differences within the community .

    1.Kunnamkulam - The Kunnamkulam town started as a major old Christian settlement. To the north of Kunnamkulam lies Ponnanni which is a major port of of Nediyirrupu Swaroopam (Kozhikode) and Kunnamkulam was the first major town in Perumpadappu Swaroopam (Cochin) while coming south .The Kozhikode rulers supported the Mappilas and Ponnanni was dominated by them. On the other hand the Christians was promoted by the cochin rulers as the major traders along with the news. Kunnamkulam is also the place of the St Thomas conversion story(Palayoor near Chavakkad). I guess the original Christians of the Kunnamkulam area are converts from the major trade guilds of the area who were probably Jains. Even now Kunnamkulam Christians are considered the marwaris of Kerala and is known for their business acumen.The early settlement extended upto Guruvayoor and Chavakkad.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  13. #38
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    2.Kodungalloor- This ancient port town has been a major settlement for Christians. During the 16th major it was second largest settlement of Christians. Iringalakuda,Mala and North Paravur became important sub centers.The trade along the Periyar river had made them economically strong community. This settlement was mostly traders and businessmen who took to farming very late. Much of early Christians of this settlement might have had significant Jewish ancestry since it was also a Jewish stronghold area. Once the importance of Kodungallur was reduced Angamaly and Iringalakuda become more prominent centres for Christians.

    3.Piravom-Mulanthuruthy - The southern side of Ernakulam city had an old Christian settlement. Several old churches dan be found around here. Piravom and Mulanthuruthy become centers of this settlement. They spread very early into Koothattukulam,Muvattupuzha,Kothamangalam and Vaikom. Christians around this area was mostly small traders and small time farmers. Christians here didn't get much backing from the rulers. Nevertheless they thrived as an old community though not were very prosperous. They tend to keep old traditions strictly than others.The area of this settlement was in the vadakkumkoor kingdom which later merged into travancore
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  14. #39
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    4.Kottayam - Kottayam is the biggest settlement and by far most influential sub culture. Though comparatively newer settlement centered around Kuruvilangad the first Christians supposedly migrants from north. Kottayam became the strongest centre of Christians both numerically and politicaly.There must have been significant conversions into Christianity during the thekkenkoor times as they supported or even favoured them well. The Eastern shores of Vembanad Kayal and along the Meenachil River they expanded their settlements. These Christians were small and big traders and significant numbers were into farming too. Though overall they were rich there were poorer neighborhoods too. During the British times they made most of the English education system and that elevated their the living conditions. They are also responsible for the local- European fusion dishes some of which became signature dishes of Syrian Christians like the the stews and moilees. The increased consumption of beef and pork was also result of European influence .Other centres near were Ettumanoor and Changanassery. The area was mostly under the Thekkenkoor Kingdom which later merged into Travancore
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  15. #40
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    5.Pala - Palai along with Erattupetta,Kanjirapally and Bharananganam forms the eastern extension of the Kottayam settlement. Palai is one of the oldest eastern settlement. They were much influential and had much higher landholding per family than Kottayam. The Christians here are often called as Achayans and are known for lavish lifestyle.I guess the power of the community here dates back to conversion of rich overlords of these area who were of part Tamil origins.The ancient Christian family of Pala can trace back their history of these people. These people were further enriched by the migrants from the western Kottayam area along Meenachil and Manimala rivers. So the original smaller community at Pala grew bigger and become independent of the west. These people were among the pioneers of agricultural estates and many descendants migrated to hilly area for cultivation.

    6.Thiruvalla and Chengannur - The places alongside the Achankovil river had very old Christian settlements. Though by time they became smaller, scattered and declining. But the southward migration of Kottayam Christians rejuvanated the community which led to the thriving community around Thiruvalla and Chengannur towns. Mostly small time farmers and few rich farmers. The area mostly under Kayamkulam kingdom also called as Odanad. They were not influential as Christians in Kottayam as Nairs were the people in power in the area and tended to be on poorer side. They tend to be more hinduised than their northern counterparts. The English education during the British period has changed the fortune of the community there. They were the pioneers of Nursing migration to Europe,America and Gulf.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

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