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Thread: R2 - Origo.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Yes, and this is the point. It looks like it, and R2 on itself, seems not to fit to India.
    ...
    So I have two questions, maybe someone knows:

    1. Do are known some archeological findings of R2, and how old they are?
    2. How and where is the most big differentiation of R2?
    Waiting for that to crop up in the earnest! Along with L657, perhaps the most populous branch of R1a, R2 has been missing from the record.

    R2-M479 has a descending branch M124 mainly seen in South Asia (99%?) and scattered M479xM124 samples from Portugal to southern India.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    But in my language the term: "Indoeuropeans" and "indoeuropean" refers to a people in first place.
    You can call it tribe, nation, ethnic group - whatever. Language is only a verbal tool to communicate
    with each other, which is associate with group of genetic related people (sometimes not).

    So Indoeuropeans - that are not only speakers of some language, and indoeuropean it is not only a term from lingustics.
    This is an ethnos: clan with common ancestor, kinsmen, language, culture, some genes - everything what can be associate
    with this people. Especialy a prime line from the first ancestor whom we called M-173 (or maybe M-207?).
    I tend to think it's exactly the opposite
    "iE" is a linguistic term. Everything else is a heuristic concept which needs further scrutinising. The Z2013 proto-Anatolians who were earlier and different to Z93 Indo Arians were not the same clan, or kin; in fact I doubt they had any higher level affiliation.
    The common ancestor they shared lived 18000 years ago; at which point there was no pIE.
    The phenomenon of both of them spreading IE was due to later processes around the ponto-caspian region. iE has to first come into being; then to be adapted by several similar but distinct groups; then subsequently spread by them through asynchronous, regionally specific mechanisms
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 11-03-2015 at 01:42 AM.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I think IE is much older in India than assumed, entering directly from China.
    You are going to have to explain your theory now, it sounds quite out of the ordinary!

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    You are going to have to explain your theory now, it sounds quite out of the ordinary!
    It's been around for some time! IE was proposed by Narain to originate near Gansu to explain the presence of the Tocharian language. Narain equated the Yuezhi, who had lived in that region "since time immemorial" per the Chinese, with Tocharian speakers. The theory was pooh poohed by Mallory & Mair: "Seldom has a tail so small wagged a dog so large." http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post46811

    A branch of the Yuezhi entered eastern India quite early - well before the Buddha - where they are entitled Vajji, literally pastoral nomads. https://books.google.com/books?id=Ma...C&pg=SL1-PA170
    The Chinese characters for Yuezhi and Vajji are the same. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post82771

    Witzel brings the Vajji from the NW, but with little or no support.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/13470
    I have collected incidental data that add up to a picture of a migration of Sakas into Bihar, much earlier than
    the well known one into Sakastaan (Seistan) around 140 BCE.
    ... The Sakya (and Malla, Vajj/Vrji) are NEW in Bihar, and not found in
    the Late Vedic texts at *that* location, but first in the Pali canon (compiled c.250 BCE) ... the Sakya (Skt. s'aakya), cannot be
    separated from the designation of the northern Iranian Saka (Skt.
    S'aka) hat entered India only after c. 140 BE, via Sistan.

    The name, as well as that of some Late Vedic kings and noblemen,
    Balhika Pratipiiya and perhaps Cakra Sthapati, recall the Iranian
    countries Baaxdhii/Balh (Bactria) and Caxra.

    Further, the Sakya, Malla, etc. built high grave mounds, such as the
    one for the Buddha. These remind of Central Asian grave mounds (kurgan).

    Then, there is the legendary custom of Sakya incest marriage
    (strictly forbidden in India since the Rgveda), an Iranian
    (Zoroastrian) custom...

    Taken together, these points tend to indicate that there was some
    Iranian influence in Bihar in Late Vedic times. However, by the time
    of the Buddha, the Iranoid character of the Sakya, by and large,
    seemed to have dissipated.

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  9. #15
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    I could see R2 being associated with the BMAC but not PIE. Parasar weren't you telling me of R2's Philipino connections through descent from P? Did people basically make a giant counter-clockwise circle around Eurasia or something?

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    I could see R2 being associated with the BMAC but not PIE. Parasar weren't you telling me of R2's Philipino connections through descent from P? Did people basically make a giant counter-clockwise circle around Eurasia or something?
    Yes. If I recollect I had mentioned it in conjunction with your maternal line - a close line to one found in the Philippines.

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  13. #17
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    I recall this discussion was had deep in a thread elsewhere on the forum. I agree with Megalophias' deductions completely, although the current circumstances do leave us in a speculative quagmire.

    Interpretation of R2a-M124's development in Eurasia is severely hampered by academia's lack of testing for downstream SNPs, most of which have only emerged in the past couple of years (mostly from citizen scientist endeavours).

    L295 is the best division we have to go by at present. L295+ appears more frequently in South India and in regions hugging the sub-tropical-temporal zone. Judging by STRs, L295- does not represent a distinct node in the phylogeny as L295+ does (i.e. L295- is "everything else" for now).

    YFull's MRCA estimates seem to confirm this inference. L295 is dated to around 8.9kya (formed 10kya), whereas M124 is a good deal older (last MRCA estimate I saw online was around 14-15kya).

    In light of this, even when working with R2a-L295- samples alone, SNP's currently offer no illumination on patrilineal expansion patterns. Whether or not, for instance, Uttar Pradesh Brahmin R2a-L295- is tied to some sort of Indo-Iranian expansion or a local variant, can't be discerned for now. Which leads onto the Indo-European aspect of the discussion.

    Given the complete absence of R2a-M124 in all early Eurasian steppe aDNA retrieved thus far, it is highly unlikely (though technically not impossible) that speakers of PIE or PII carried it. However, the presence of non-R1 lineages on the steppes in the Iron Age does open up the possibility it could have diffused onto the steppes after the primary IE expansions occurred before 2000 B.C.

    I do broadly agree with the current mantra regarding the imprecise nature of reverse-projecting modern population characteristics onto past populations. However, some useful clues can be discerned from investigating the former*. One of the aims of the FTDNA WTY-R2-M124 Project is to break down the subclade variants found in both L295+ and L295-. For those interested in supporting us, please consider donating.

    * Y-DNA R is found across modern Eurasia with both larger frequencies and subclade diversity than in Africa. Following the "modern population phylogeny is useless" mantra here, are we to argue for the theoretical possibility R arose and developed in Africa?

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  15. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I tend to think it's exactly the opposite
    "iE" is a linguistic term. Everything else is a heuristic concept which needs further scrutinising.
    Do you have better term? Maybe Aryans - as it is still using in american literature as an equvalent of Indoeuropeans?

    The Z2013 proto-Anatolians who were earlier and different to Z93 Indo Arians were not the same clan, or kin; in fact I doubt they had any higher level affiliation.
    Do you see everything partialy: language, people, lineage, culutre aso...?
    Strange... when you are looking on the car, do you see car or wheels, colour, glass, chairs etc?

    The common ancestor they shared lived 18000 years ago;
    First, as I wrote, pralanguage can be old between 4000 and 40.000 years.
    (This is an opinion of specialists, not mine).
    So what's a problem? 18.000 compare to 40.000 - it is nothing.
    So the argument that last common ancestor lived 18.000 years ago, and
    his descendant cannot be IE because this language did not exist at that
    time is false. This pralanguage could exist then, so are they IEs or not?

    Second - PIE which was the common ancestor of present languages didn't become to
    exist recently 5000 years ago, but the people who speak that language were speaking
    on pre-PIE long before - even as long as 18.000 years... why? because they could talk.

    The same, as Romulus was speaking on the same language as Francesco Paolo Tronca
    (present day mayor of Rome) - even if they cannot understand each other. Language
    is the same, but stadium is different. The same was with people living before Kurgans.

    Especialy, that IE-pra-language is the last common stage for present day indoeuropean
    languages - not the first stage. So it is like latin for Italo-Celtic peoples, of even only for
    Italics/Italians. Last stage of romanian languages it was maybe the classical latin from first
    century. It doesn't mean, that Romans, Latins from Latium, Latinians, and Italics (Umbrians
    and Oskians) didn't exist before that stage, because they didn't speak romanian language
    but pre-pre-pre-romanian. It would be a stupid assumption.

    Second - 18.000? Wow, this common ancestor is going year by year younger and younger
    So if you divide this big number of years by 3 or 4 you will have probably more correct one.
    Theories based on fictional thousands of years withot connection with history are always falling.
    Are dozens of examples which were fairy tales and had no sense from the beginnig.
    Genetic without history is completly useless.

    This big numbers of thousands of years can be only a clue - what was before, and what was after.

    at which point there was no pIE.
    They didn't exist?
    So if the common ancestor lived 18.000 yerars ago, and tribe which you called IE becoming to
    existance about 13.000 years later... then where this people were through 13.000 years? Did
    they vanished or everyone lived in different parts of the world and after 13.000 years they all
    recently had one thoght and decide to go into one place somewere in the eurasian steppe?

    No, they won't. They lived as a one group of people, and sometimes some smaller gorup (part
    of that people) could dissoociate from the big one - but their origin were still in this first group.

    The phenomenon of both of them spreading IE was due to later processes around the ponto-caspian region. iE has to first come into being; then to be adapted by several similar but distinct groups; then subsequently spread by them through asynchronous, regionally specific mechanisms
    As above.

    ------------------------

    I have no douts from 10 years that R1 this is an IE tribe.

    What about R2 - I dont know, but it isn't impossible.

    For now - we dont have any clue.
    Some guessing thousands of years to exclude
    this possibility are not an argument at all.

    If R2 would be a totally different racial, language or geografical group - then ok.
    But they are not. They speak someone else langauge, they have someone else
    anthropological type, and they lived among anothers people in some common for
    many groups of people territory. They have none distinguish marks - at all.

    So who they are? IE or not?

    If they would be some totaly different genetic
    line among thier neighbors, like hg T. But they
    are not. They live among R1...
    Last edited by Rethel; 11-03-2015 at 01:17 PM.

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  17. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    I could see R2 being associated with the BMAC but not PIE.
    Bactria-Margiana Archeological Complex (you mean right?) it is 2300–1700 BCE.
    Where they were before that time, and on which language they were spoken?

    To the kurgans you have 1,5-2 tousands of years... this is a huge period of time...

    And what do you do with this time until 18.000 ya which Gravetian was proposed?

  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Bactria-Margiana Archeological Complex (you mean right?) it is 2300–1700 BCE.
    Where they were before that time, and on which language they were spoken?

    To the kurgans you have 1,5-2 tousands of years... this is a huge period of time...

    And what do you do with this time until 18.000 ya which Gravetian was proposed?
    I dunno man. I have a bias against seeing my gotra having any mlechha origins including PIE at any point in time before the advent of Mehrgarh, IVC etc. I'd say we were adivasis of the Indo-Gangetic plains that got Aryanized culturally (language-shifted) and pulled up the caste ladder by profession...I don't like to entertain fantastical notions of origins near Lake Baikal or Caspian Sea unless I see irrefutable evidence to suggest so. And like I said, BMAC is the furthest northwest I am comfortable discussing origins of R2 in the IVC time frame, not anywhere further northwest than that.
    BTW, I'm not carrying any Hindu nationalist biases. I knew the Out-of-India theories are just as much pseudo-science as the AIT or AMT. But I'm a fan of cultural/linguistic diffusion, whereby the northern plains got Aryanized without changing its genetics...hence my claim that R2 is probably pretty indigenous to the subcontinent (that is pre-10k BC), and just got acculturated.

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