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Thread: Origin of the Italics

  1. #71
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    There are occasional horse bones in the Neolithic in western and central Europe - probably wild - and increasing numbers (and size) of horses in the Late Neolithic, prior to the spread of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker, at some sites. When the horse was introduced to North America it spread very rapidly far ahead of the spread of any particular people. Numerous distinct ethnolinguistic groups obtained them and struggled for dominance. Early adapter advantage was short-lived, but people who had access to large numbers of horses for whatever reason did have a considerable advantage.

    So I would be very leery of connecting the *introduction* of domestic horses in a given place to the appearance of new people in any considerable numbers - which is not to say that the new people (who certainly existed) didn't have a lot of horses.

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  3. #72
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    Yes the horse aspect does look important. It has been suggested for a very long time then skepticism crept in and now new evidence is again backing the importance of the the horse to the beaker phenomenon or at least part of it. My hunch is that the horse was added into the mix around 2500BC and coincides with the sudden massive extension of the beaker using peoples around the period 2500-2400BC after a long period with a much more limited distribution. Rivers are useful for boat transport but tend to be useful in one direction - with flow - and the return journey against current wouldnt have been so much fun. Anyone who knows anything about the mortality rate - its astonishing - of traditional fishermen in open boats in northern Europe will realise how dangerous marine transport must have been in the beaker period and how it would have been used sparingly with open sea avoided at all costs wherever possible.

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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yes the horse aspect does look important. It has been suggested for a very long time then skepticism crept in and now new evidence is again backing the importance of the the horse to the beaker phenomenon or at least part of it. My hunch is that the horse was added into the mix around 2500BC and coincides with the sudden massive extension of the beaker using peoples around the period 2500-2400BC after a long period with a much more limited distribution. Rivers are useful for boat transport but tend to be useful in one direction - with flow - and the return journey against current wouldnt have been so much fun. Anyone who knows anything about the mortality rate - its astonishing - of traditional fishermen in open boats in northern Europe will realise how dangerous marine transport must have been in the beaker period and how it would have been used sparingly with open sea avoided at all costs wherever possible.
    I very much look forward to more evidence like that of the BB beaker man with evidence of stress patterns from probable riding. Although difficult, a larger series of such samples and horse bone studies will really clarify how prevalent horses were between 3000 - 2000 BC Europe, their role/ use.

    But I think Megalophias hit it on the head that, as with other innovations like wheels and metals, I doubt anyone had a monopoly over horses for too long a time.

  6. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    And just to make matters more interesting, the Umbrians spoke P-Italic instead of Q-Italic
    Good observations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I hear that proto-Celtic and Latin show a lot of similarities.
    Be careful of what you hear....

  8. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    There are occasional horse bones in the Neolithic in western and central Europe - probably wild - and increasing numbers (and size) of horses in the Late Neolithic, prior to the spread of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker, at some sites. When the horse was introduced to North America it spread very rapidly far ahead of the spread of any particular people. Numerous distinct ethnolinguistic groups obtained them and struggled for dominance. Early adapter advantage was short-lived, but people who had access to large numbers of horses for whatever reason did have a considerable advantage.

    So I would be very leery of connecting the *introduction* of domestic horses in a given place to the appearance of new people in any considerable numbers - which is not to say that the new people (who certainly existed) didn't have a lot of horses.
    Yes, they had horse meat and horse milk which is an absolute advantage. I wish people would literally get off their "high horse" and stop making the bell beakers some ancient elite cavalry force. Horses domesticated for warfare are expensive regardless of how primitive the society or culture may seem to us. Horses for transport are ridiculous when oxen work much better. I would say it's a safe bet that oxen are more common in everyday beaker life rather than the horse was. The small number of elites get the horses and chariots, but somehow we always attribute those finds and superimpose them over a whole culture as if only the horse made a significant cultural impact. We also must think about the pigs too and for the many great feasts they've provided our ancestors. Pork, beef, and horse meat means more protein, more strength, more ability to kill your enemies by mere physical force alone. Let's see a lamb and veg eater go against a beef, horse, and pork eater in hand-to-hand combat. I would venture to guess the one who eats the most protein will win the fight but will have a short lived life to compensate for the diet.
    Last edited by Arch; 11-23-2015 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    Be careful of what you hear....
    Useful advice in general, but what do you mean with it in the context of the italo-celtic (sub-)family?
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  10. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    ...I wish people would literally get off their "high horse" and stop making the bell beakers some ancient elite cavalry force...
    The only ones that are painting them as an ancient elite cavalry force are the ones telling others not to.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  12. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    I wish people would literally get off their "high horse" and stop making the bell beakers some ancient elite cavalry force.
    ?? Seems to be in your mind Arch, rather than mine. I referred to domesticated horses in #61 above. This is the context, extracted from different pages of Blood of the Celts:

    ... what archaeologist Andrew Sherratt called the 'Secondary Products Revolution'. Instead of just killing animals for meat, farmers began to keep them for renewable secondary products, such as milk, cheese and wool, and for transport and traction. Horses and donkeys could be ridden or carry a pack ...

    Horses ran wild on the wide grasslands of the Eurasian steppes. They were tamed at around the same time that the wagon was invented, but not to run in harness. The first carts were heavy and slow-moving. Horses were fleet of foot and ideal for riding. Riders could control much larger herds of animals, and venture further with them....

    Another rich Copper Age culture appeared in Iberia. The earliest dates of copper-working there (c. 3100 BC) are for mining-metallurgical complexes in South-western Iberia, such as Cabezo Juré. It is revealing that this site was colonised by a community already specialised in copper production. These incomers lived within a fortified centre, dining well and importing luxuries, while in a village outside lived the lower-status workers. The well-protected elite controlled access to horses, used probably in the transport of copper ore. At this time Iberia had wild horses. Some of their DNA made its way into modern Iberian breeds. Horse bones are found together with Bell Beaker pottery throughout its range, so the idea that domesticated horses spread from Iberia with Bell Beaker has enjoyed a certain popularity, but sites such as Cabezo Juré, which precede Bell Beaker, suggest that the knowledge of horse-taming and copper-working arrived in Iberia together from the European steppe.
    No hint of cavalry. That appears thousands of years later.

    I should add that the fact that DNA from wild horses in Iberia entered modern Iberian breeds, but not breeds elsewhere, is further evidence that horse domestication spread from the steppe, and arrived in Iberia fully-fledged. People could add to their domesticated stock from the wild in Iberia. But the home of horse-breeding lay elsewhere. Csepel BB people seem to have been horse-breeders.

    Now back to the Italics. I hope.
    Last edited by Jean M; 11-23-2015 at 04:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    There are two distinct spheres of Bell Beaker influence within the Italian peninsula - one related to Southern France and Iberia and the other related to Central Europe. A very interesting observation was made by Claudio Pofferi a couple of years ago in his book I Popoli dell'Antica Italia: Rinaldoniani, Umbri, Pelasgi, Villanoviani ed Etrusci regarding the material distribution of these two spheres. In it, he says that the distribution of the former coincides with the areas which historical tradition records as having been inhabited by the Ligurians and the latter, lands inhabited by the Umbrians. Needless to say, it is quite interesting that coastal NW Italy samples from the FTDNA projects show a nice spike in DF27, seemingly at the expense of U152. While U152 is also common in the prior Ligurian lands, it seems that most of it is U152(xL2). Unlike the rest of Italy, U152+L2+ is most common in NE Italy which is directionally where the Central European Bell Beaker influences would have penetrated from. U152+L2+ is also more frequent as a percentage of overall U152 in Northern Europe. So, it could be that DF27 and U152(xL2) were part of Western European Bell Beaker and L2 was part of Central European Bell Beaker. Unfortunately we don’t know if the German U152+ Bell Beaker skeleton was L2+ or not. The post-Bell Beaker Polada Culture seems to have strong ties to both the NE Swiss Arbon Culture as well as the Danubian Wieselburg-Gata Culture (also confirmed R-M269+), so the links to Central Europe remain quite strong into the Middle Bronze Age.
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Or alternatively Celtic could have been what emerged where Celto-Italic beaker people overlapped with pre-Germanic CW plus non-IE substrate. This could make sense of the duplicated unique war-ritual-power vocab shared at the pre-proto stage between the ancestors of Celts and Germans.

    Italic, Ligurian, Lusitanian seem to coincide with areas where beaker did not land on a CW substrate.

    Not bad guys, six years later.....
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....090#post789090

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