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Thread: The migration that missed out Wales

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    The migration that missed out Wales

    Just a quick look at the People of the British Ilses pie-chart maps below shows that the main difference between the Welsh and the English is not, as one might have expected, a lack of German signatured DNA in the Welsh but a complete absence of the dark blue 17 which occurs at highest frequency in northern France (both west and east).





    Which historical migration do you think the blue 17 represents and why, apparently, did those migrants/invaders not enter Wales while most of the other (earlier?) groups did?
    Last edited by Caratacus; 11-11-2015 at 10:39 AM.

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    What's interesting here is that when you look at their earlier analysis which included Ireland the proportions of the "North French" cluster is quite different. In earlier analysis it was "Cluster 16" ("Cluster 17" == "Cluster 14" of published report somewhat)





    The "Old Cluster 17" appears to be also absent from Wales, but note it's difference when it comes to rest of Britain, I wonder if it's "subsumed" some of the Irish cluster, which had been removed from the later analysis. eg. that a chunk of the old "Cluster 24" got submerged by the algorithm along with "Old Cluster 17" into the new "Custer 16"

    As for movements between Northern France and Britain, I can think of two obvious ones in history, the movement of Belgae/Gauls into Southern Britain in 200 years before Caesar (coin minting tribes) and obviously the Norman takeover 1000-1200 years later.
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    Welsh are probably closest to the pre-Anglo-Saxon Celtic inhabitants of England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caratacus View Post
    Just a quick look at the People of the British Ilses pie-chart maps below shows that the main difference between the Welsh and the English is not, as one might have expected, a lack of German signatured DNA in the Welsh but a complete absence of the dark blue 17 which occurs at highest frequency in northern France (both west and east).





    Which historical migration do you think the blue 17 represents and why, apparently, did those migrants/invaders not enter Wales while most of the other (earlier?) groups did?
    I have mentioned the N and NE France cluster 17 on other threads but nobody seemed to have any ideas about it. I don't know if it is the result of a specific migration to Britain from France or not, but if it is, then I doubt it is the Normans because cluster 17 is quite substantial and I can't imagine that the Normans made that much of a genetic impact. IMO, more likely it is an Iron Age movement into Britain (eg. Belgae) that had virtually no impact on NW and SW Wales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    What's interesting here is that when you look at their earlier analysis which included Ireland the proportions of the "North French" cluster is quite different. In earlier analysis it was "Cluster 16" ("Cluster 17" == "Cluster 14" of published report somewhat)





    The "Old Cluster 17" appears to be also absent from Wales, but note it's difference when it comes to rest of Britain, I wonder if it's "subsumed" some of the Irish cluster, which had been removed from the later analysis. eg. that a chunk of the old "Cluster 24" got submerged by the algorithm along with "Old Cluster 17" into the new "Custer 16"

    As for movements between Northern France and Britain, I can think of two obvious ones in history, the movement of Belgae/Gauls into Southern Britain in 200 years before Caesar (coin minting tribes) and obviously the Norman takeover 1000-1200 years later.
    I see what you are saying. In the original analysis they had the Irish component "cluster 24" which they then took out in the final analysis and in doing so this altered the proportions of the NW France and the N/NE France clusters? It looks as though the effect was to reduce the NW France component and increase the N/NE France cluster proportion but I have no idea how to interpret this in terms of the history/prehistory.

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    Well there are some other differences apparanet note distinct cluster 12 in NE France in published report, that NE cluster is bit different in older material. Though it's hard to tell given their fetish for various shades of Blue
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    Iron Age Belgic/Gaulish invasions look the most likely to cover that area. The high proportion among the 'West Scotland/N. Irish' cluster (i.e. Highlands, Islands and 'Indigenous' Irish) would seem to support this, as that's not an area known for Anglo-Saxon or Norman settlement.

    The other alternatives are of course Anglo-Saxon or even Norse, but then why the matches to France?

    I found an intriguing suggestion while reading Morris' excellent 'Age of Arthur' recently. In it, he suggested fairly large-scale Anglo-Saxon movements from England to Northern France (covering the Cotentin to Calais) in the Sixth Century. The suggestion was that after the Britons had stabilized the frontier circa 500, recent Germanic immigrants expanded out to France instead of heading West, founding 'hundreds' of villages in the area. I don't know if this has since been debunked, but if both areas were Belgic/Gaulish with a topping of Anglo-Saxon and later Norse (plus later Norman invasion), it would not be a surprise if Northern France and England showed up as basically identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zamyatin13 View Post
    Iron Age Belgic/Gaulish invasions look the most likely to cover that area. The high proportion among the 'West Scotland/N. Irish' cluster (i.e. Highlands, Islands and 'Indigenous' Irish) would seem to support this, as that's not an area known for Anglo-Saxon or Norman settlement.

    The other alternatives are of course Anglo-Saxon or even Norse, but then why the matches to France?

    I found an intriguing suggestion while reading Morris' excellent 'Age of Arthur' recently. In it, he suggested fairly large-scale Anglo-Saxon movements from England to Northern France (covering the Cotentin to Calais) in the Sixth Century. The suggestion was that after the Britons had stabilized the frontier circa 500, recent Germanic immigrants expanded out to France instead of heading West, founding 'hundreds' of villages in the area. I don't know if this has since been debunked, but if both areas were Belgic/Gaulish with a topping of Anglo-Saxon and later Norse (plus later Norman invasion), it would not be a surprise if Northern France and England showed up as basically identical.
    There were Saxon settlements in the Loire valley in the immediate post-Roman period.

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    I should have added that Flanders extends into NE France and was Frankish (Germanic) territory.

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    Boulonnais and Ponthieu are known Anglo-Saxon settlements, some directly from Jutland (IIId/IVth centuries, probably allied of Rome in the Litus Saxonicum) other from England (VIth/VIIth centuries).
    90% of toponyms around Boulogne are of Anglo-Saxon origin, and some can be found on both sides of the Channel, like Colincthun/Colington, Sangate/Sandgate....
    You can find many studies about it.
    Think about the coins of Quentowic (on of the maker was "Anglo").

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