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Thread: Are there are actually two different Mongol groups genetically in terms of aDNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for this data on the yDNA and mtDNA. Are there any Khalkha autosomal samples that can be upload to gedmatch?
    I have one Khalkha Mongol kit number:
    Z607484

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I have one Khalkha Mongol kit number:
    Z607484
    Thanks. Actually I have saw that kit before.

    I found some DNA papers that seems to contain Mongolian results. Do you know how to upload them to gedmatch?

    https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi...biol_preprints
    http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.131...logy.87.2.0005
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30197 (there are Mongol and Siberian samples in there)
    http://docplayer.net/9738008-Forensi...-genetics.html

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Thanks. Actually I have saw that kit before.

    I found some DNA papers that seems to contain Mongolian results. Do you know how to upload them to gedmatch?

    https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi...biol_preprints
    http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.131...logy.87.2.0005
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30197 (there are Mongol and Siberian samples in there)
    http://docplayer.net/9738008-Forensi...-genetics.html
    No, unfortunately I don't.

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Mongola samples are not Buryats. They are Khalka and their yDNAs are the following:
    HGDP01223 mtDNA M7b1a2
    HGDP01224 N1c TAT, mtDNA B4a1c4
    HGDP01225 O3e M134, mtDNA C4a1
    HGDP01226 D* M174, mtDNA A4a1a
    HGDP01227 R1b2b M073, mtDNA A4
    HGDP01228 O3e M134, mtDNA D4c1b
    HGDP01229 O3e M134, mtDNA A4
    HGDP01230 C3 M217, mtDNA Z3
    HGDP01231, mtDNA A15a
    HGDP01232, mtDNA G2a’c

    Their mtDNAs are all local.
    Plenty of archetypal Sino-Tibetan yDNA.

    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~atks/...amples-hgdp.sa
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...230/table/TB3/

    A bit incorrect. Your study would basically imply Inner Mongolia are not Mongols which are wrong. Samples are too few and besides

    Here are Mongols from inner Mongolia

    2 belonged to Y*(xA, CE, JR)
    17 to C3*(xC3c)
    4 to C3c
    2 to K*
    6 to N3a
    1 to O2*
    3 to O3*(xO3a-O3e)
    2 to O3/-cd*
    3 to O3*(xOEe1)
    5 to O3e1*(xO3e1a)

    Haplogroup O3 had always been a marker of the Mongols aswell. The Altaians Kazakhs have 26% of haplogroup O that doesn't mean it was from Sinitic the same aplies to the Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese with significant C3, it doesn't mean most of them originated from Mongols.
    Last edited by Thepowerrangers; 02-27-2018 at 10:35 PM.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for this data on the yDNA and mtDNA. Are there any Khalkha autosomal samples that can be upload to gedmatch?

    I don't think those Mongol results are Khalka. Inner Mongolia have a mixture of haplogroup C3 and O3 just like outer Mongolia only Inner Mongolia have higher percentage of O3. However this doesn't means they have mixture with Sino-Tibetan because there are Turkic tribes who even have 20-26% haplogroup O

    For example In a sample of 54 Kazakhs and 119 Altaian Kazakh. The main paternal lineages of Kazakhs are: C (66.7% and 59.5%), O (9% and 26%), N (2% and 0%), J (4% and 0%), R (9% and 1%).[49]

    The predominant marker of Mongols in China is still haplogroup C3


  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepowerrangers View Post
    I don't think those Mongol results are Khalka. Inner Mongolia have a mixture of haplogroup C3 and O3 just like outer Mongolia only Inner Mongolia have higher percentage of O3. However this doesn't means they have mixture with Sino-Tibetan because there are Turkic tribes who even have 20-26% haplogroup O
    It is not really relevant that significant percentages of the males of some Turkic-speaking ethnic groups belong to Y-DNA haplogroup O. Your argument is logically equivalent to claiming that Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in Mexicans might be indigenous because members of the same haplogroup have been found in Algonquians; in reality, R1b both in Mexicans and in Algonquians is ascribable to migration of males from Western Europe over the last five centuries.

    You would need to demonstrate that members of haplogroup O (or particularly members of O-F444, depending on what you wish to prove) among Turkic peoples and/or Mongols are not merely a derived subset of e.g. Chinese males, but are rather ancestral to the Chinese (and various other peoples in East and Southeast Asia) or otherwise that both are coordinate branches from a common ancestor. I have not seen any data so far that would disprove a hypothesis that haplogroup O-M122 in Mongolia and Central Asia reflects assimilated descendants of males from China.

    Haplogroup O3 had always been a marker of the Mongols aswell. The Altaians Kazakhs have 26% of haplogroup O that doesn't mean it was from Sinitic the same aplies to the Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese with significant C3, it doesn't mean most of them originated from Mongols.
    It appears that an overwhelming majority of the members of C2-M217 among Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, and other populations of East and Southeast Asia belong to C-F1067. According to YFull YTree v6.01, that clade's TMRCA with C-L1373, the latter of which includes the majority of members of Y-DNA haplogroup C among Turkic peoples, Mongols, Tungusic peoples, and other populations throughout Central Asia, North Asia, and North America, is estimated to be 34,600 [95% CI 32,100 <-> 37,200] ybp. That common ancestor is the common ancestor of all known members of C2-M217.

    It is much more likely that the C2-M217 in Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. is of prehistoric origin in East Asia and not a result of influx of Turks or Mongols than that the O2-M122 in Mongols, Kazakhs, Karakalpaks, Kyrgyzes, Uzbeks, Uyghurs, etc. is indigenous to Mongolia or Central Asia and not a result of influx of Chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    It is not really relevant that significant percentages of the males of some Turkic-speaking ethnic groups belong to Y-DNA haplogroup O. Your argument is logically equivalent to claiming that Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in Mexicans might be indigenous because members of the same haplogroup have been found in Algonquians; in reality, R1b both in Mexicans and in Algonquians is ascribable to migration of males from Western Europe over the last five centuries.

    You would need to demonstrate that members of haplogroup O (or particularly members of O-F444, depending on what you wish to prove) among Turkic peoples and/or Mongols are not merely a derived subset of e.g. Chinese males, but are rather ancestral to the Chinese (and various other peoples in East and Southeast Asia) or otherwise that both are coordinate branches from a common ancestor. I have not seen any data so far that would disprove a hypothesis that haplogroup O-M122 in Mongolia and Central Asia reflects assimilated descendants of males from China.

    It appears that an overwhelming majority of the members of C2-M217 among Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, and other populations of East and Southeast Asia belong to C-F1067. According to YFull YTree v6.01, that clade's TMRCA with C-L1373, the latter of which includes the majority of members of Y-DNA haplogroup C among Turkic peoples, Mongols, Tungusic peoples, and other populations throughout Central Asia, North Asia, and North America, is estimated to be 34,600 [95% CI 32,100 <-> 37,200] ybp. That common ancestor is the common ancestor of all known members of C2-M217.

    It is much more likely that the C2-M217 in Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. is of prehistoric origin in East Asia and not a result of influx of Turks or Mongols than that the O2-M122 in Mongols, Kazakhs, Karakalpaks, Kyrgyzes, Uzbeks, Uyghurs, etc. is indigenous to Mongolia or Central Asia and not a result of influx of Chinese.

    You're completely wrong. I don't even need to check if it's a related with males from China and even if their Y-DNA matches Chinese it has nothing to do with assimilating descendants of males from China because in all places around the world that have close proximity to other cultures always shows mixture of haplogroups since neolithic and preshistoric.

    It's like people wrongly claiming Haplogroup J1 in Europe derived from Arab males when it's clearly prehistoric, even haplogroup J1 in Iran was prehistoric rather than as a s result of Arab invasion, the same with Turkey that has 9% J1 has nothing to do with Arabs. Just like haplogroup E types in Spain was not spread by Moors invasion, it was prehistoric like all of E in Europe.


    Mongol invasion did bring haplogroup C, O to Central Asia, Middle east, Turkey, Caucasus, Ukraine's, Crimea from the 13th century but whenever there's haplogroup C the haplogroup O always becomes the minority with exception of a few area. O in Turkey it's only 0.16% and 1.5% in Caucasus with much higher percentages of C that's because Mongols have more C than O. No one also can say haplogroup Q,N was brought during the Mongolian invasion during the Turkic tribes under Mongols. Surely you're suggesting me that even haplogroup O in rare places like Turkey, Caucasus n were spread by Chinese males.


    Are you suggesting it was Chinese males/Chinese soldiers that spread their haplogroup to central asia and middle east just because most of them belong to O2-M122 (also known as haplogroup O3 ). Are you actually claiming it was spread by ethnic Chinese soldiers separately rather than by Mongols who would also carried haplogroup O since neolothic times ( or even as the assimilated descendants of Chinese thousand years before the 13th century invasions ? )

    Last edited by Thepowerrangers; 03-01-2018 at 09:07 PM.

  11. #38
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    I do not see any indication in the Y-STR haplotypes of those Mongols and Central Asians that they might be more diverse than East and Southeast Asians and ought to be considered as a potential contributor of such Y-chromosomes to populations of East and Southeast Asia.

    Karakaev Russian Federation O-F204 (CTS7634+, F317-, CTS5488-)
    O2a2b1a1a3-CTS7634 formed 8200 ybp, TMRCA 6900 ybp (based on O-F2188, which includes the Y-DNA of two individuals in Ho Chi Minh City, an individual in Cebu, and an individual in Henan, plus an O-CTS7634* Han in Beijing, an O-CTS7634* Han in Fujian, and an O-CTS7634* individual of undeclared origin)

    Plyusnin Russian Federation O-CTS10738 (also labeled as O-Z39664)
    O2a2b1a1a5-CTS10738 formed 7500 ybp, TMRCA 6500 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of a Japanese, two Han Chinese in Fujian, and two individuals of undeclared origin)
    O2a2b1a1a5a1-Z39664 formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of a Han Chinese in Fujian and an individual of undeclared origin)

    Abay Rakhyshev KZ sadyr 14-th century, Rakhysh 19c., kazak Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Omurkulov Kyrgyzstan O-M175 predicted
    Uak Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Batyrzhan Daulet KZ,к.э.н. M134+, matai 14c.,Daulet 19c.,Sabyrbek 20c.,kazak Kazakhstan O-M134
    Ashim KZ naiman->matai->kenzhe->Daulet 19c.->Sabyrbek20c. Kazakhstan O-M134 predicted
    Turuspekov Belgibai, 1440, Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan Kazakhstan O-M134
    Khalidullin Kazakhstan O-M175 (O-FGC16889 tested or predicted)
    Ualibek Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Boztaev Kazakhstan O-M175
    O2a2b1a2a1a3b2a1-FGC16889 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 325 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of two individuals in Fujian and one individual of undeclared origin)
    TMRCA with NA18543, a Han Chinese in Beijing who belongs to O2a2b1a2a1a3b2a-L1360(xFGC16889), is estimated to be 6100 ybp.

    Choi Yong Kook Choi, b about 1900 Korea Korea, Republic of O-M134 (O2a2b1a2b2-F748 predicted)
    Grigoriev Gavrila Grigoriev, 1752, Atagan (Mongolian) Mongolia O-M134 (O2a2b1a2b2-F748 predicted)
    O2a2b1a2b2-F748 is a subclade of O2a2b1a2b-F1725: formed 14100 ybp, TMRCA 11900 ybp based on the Y-DNA of an individual from Ho Chi Minh City, an individual from Sichuan, an individual from Fujian, and an individual from Tokyo.

    Most Central Asian members of both O2a2b1a1-M117 and O2a2b1a2-F444 clearly are derived from the same Neolithic population expansion(s) that has/have left such clear traces in modern populations speaking Sino-Tibetan languages. Most of them are probably related to certain East Asian individuals more recently than the Neolithic.

    Mr. Grigoriev's Y-STR haplotype is quite close to that of Mr. Choi from Korea. Their subclade, O2a2b1a2b2-F748, is not yet shown on YFull, but I fully expect that it also will eventually be demonstrated to have an origin in East Asia based on the fact that other branches of O2a2b1a2b-F1725 have been found in Vietnamese, southern Chinese, and Japanese individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    I do not see any indication in the Y-STR haplotypes of those Mongols and Central Asians that they might be more diverse than East and Southeast Asians and ought to be considered as a potential contributor of such Y-chromosomes to populations of East and Southeast Asia.

    Karakaev Russian Federation O-F204 (CTS7634+, F317-, CTS5488-)
    O2a2b1a1a3-CTS7634 formed 8200 ybp, TMRCA 6900 ybp (based on O-F2188, which includes the Y-DNA of two individuals in Ho Chi Minh City, an individual in Cebu, and an individual in Henan, plus an O-CTS7634* Han in Beijing, an O-CTS7634* Han in Fujian, and an O-CTS7634* individual of undeclared origin)

    Plyusnin Russian Federation O-CTS10738 (also labeled as O-Z39664)
    O2a2b1a1a5-CTS10738 formed 7500 ybp, TMRCA 6500 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of a Japanese, two Han Chinese in Fujian, and two individuals of undeclared origin)
    O2a2b1a1a5a1-Z39664 formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of a Han Chinese in Fujian and an individual of undeclared origin)

    Abay Rakhyshev KZ sadyr 14-th century, Rakhysh 19c., kazak Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Omurkulov Kyrgyzstan O-M175 predicted
    Uak Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Batyrzhan Daulet KZ,к.э.н. M134+, matai 14c.,Daulet 19c.,Sabyrbek 20c.,kazak Kazakhstan O-M134
    Ashim KZ naiman->matai->kenzhe->Daulet 19c.->Sabyrbek20c. Kazakhstan O-M134 predicted
    Turuspekov Belgibai, 1440, Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan Kazakhstan O-M134
    Khalidullin Kazakhstan O-M175 (O-FGC16889 tested or predicted)
    Ualibek Kazakhstan O-M175 predicted
    Boztaev Kazakhstan O-M175
    O2a2b1a2a1a3b2a1-FGC16889 formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 325 ybp (based on the Y-DNA of two individuals in Fujian and one individual of undeclared origin)
    TMRCA with NA18543, a Han Chinese in Beijing who belongs to O2a2b1a2a1a3b2a-L1360(xFGC16889), is estimated to be 6100 ybp.

    Choi Yong Kook Choi, b about 1900 Korea Korea, Republic of O-M134 (O2a2b1a2b2-F748 predicted)
    Grigoriev Gavrila Grigoriev, 1752, Atagan (Mongolian) Mongolia O-M134 (O2a2b1a2b2-F748 predicted)
    O2a2b1a2b2-F748 is a subclade of O2a2b1a2b-F1725: formed 14100 ybp, TMRCA 11900 ybp based on the Y-DNA of an individual from Ho Chi Minh City, an individual from Sichuan, an individual from Fujian, and an individual from Tokyo.

    Most Central Asian members of both O2a2b1a1-M117 and O2a2b1a2-F444 clearly are derived from the same Neolithic population expansion(s) that has/have left such clear traces in modern populations speaking Sino-Tibetan languages. Most of them are probably related to certain East Asian individuals more recently than the Neolithic.

    Mr. Grigoriev's Y-STR haplotype is quite close to that of Mr. Choi from Korea. Their subclade, O2a2b1a2b2-F748, is not yet shown on YFull, but I fully expect that it also will eventually be demonstrated to have an origin in East Asia based on the fact that other branches of O2a2b1a2b-F1725 have been found in Vietnamese, southern Chinese, and Japanese individuals.

    You really haven't answered my question also you didn't prove anything with your data. Two important question should be answered. 1) Do you think haplogroup O came from during the Mongol invasion or before the Mongol invasion ???? Because there's no freaking way that haplogroup O appeared long after the Mongol invasion unless you believe there was a Chinese empire that ruled that much or Sino-Tibetan speaking people that migrated/settled that far away.

    2) Do you think those Haplogroup O in Central Asia, Caucasus, Middle east, Turkey are all the result of Chinese males/soldiers under Mongol invasions or came from Mongolian males itself. Because nearly every Turk have haplogroup O in smaller frequencies than C and even even when they have low frequencies they generally C they also have will generally have much lower/or tiny frequencies of haplogroup O.



    C 1.3% and O. 0.19% in Turkey

    Last edited by Thepowerrangers; 03-03-2018 at 02:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepowerrangers View Post
    You really haven't answered my question also you didn't prove anything with your data.
    I have already confirmed that Russian and Central Asian members of O-M117 and O-F444 derive from the same Neolithic expansion as members of the same two haplogroups in East and Southeast Asia derive. The non-East/Southeast Asian members are not patrilineal descendants of local Palaeolithic people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thepowerrangers View Post
    1) Do you think haplogroup O came from during the Mongol invasion or before the Mongol invasion ???? Because there's no freaking way that haplogroup O appeared long after the Mongol invasion unless you believe there was a Chinese empire that ruled that much or Sino-Tibetan speaking people that migrated/settled that far away.
    I think the members of haplogroup O among Iranic peoples, Turkic peoples, and Mongolic peoples have not migrated westward all in one wave. Iranic peoples seem to have been slightly influenced in some ancient era by the ancestral core of the Han Chinese; they tend to have an amount of O1b-M268(xM95) that is found in similar proportion to O2-M122 as those haplogroups are found among Han Chinese, and they do not have significant percentages of D-M174. On the other hand, the D-M174:O-M175 ratio is higher among Turkic and Mongolic peoples, and their members of O-M175 tend to belong to certain subclades of O-M117 or O-F444, with very low frequencies of other subclades. Therefore, one might hypothesize that Turkic and Mongolic peoples have been influenced by Tibetans or some Sino-Tibetan people closer to Tibetans than to Han Chinese. The origins of these haplogroup O individuals among Turkic and Mongolic peoples should become clear as phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup O is increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thepowerrangers View Post
    2) Do you think those Haplogroup O in Central Asia, Caucasus, Middle east, Turkey are all the result of Chinese males/soldiers under Mongol invasions or came from Mongolian males itself. Because nearly every Turk have haplogroup O in smaller frequencies than C and even even when they have low frequencies they generally C they also have will generally have much lower/or tiny frequencies of haplogroup O.
    Haplogroup O among Turkic peoples, like Haplogroup C among Turkic peoples, seems to occur with greatest frequency among Turkic peoples in Central Asia (NW China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan). These are some of the same areas that have been devastated by the medieval Mongol invasions, or otherwise have long had a population whose pastoral nomadism is similar to the way of life of the Mongols. Turkic speakers in Southwest Asia, Caucasus (except a certain subset of the Nogai), Eastern Europe, and Siberia tend to have both haplogroup C and haplogroup O with only very low frequency.

    In summary, I would say at first glance that a small amount of haplogroup O, related to lineages that predominate among modern Han Chinese, probably has been present in Central Asia since classical antiquity. However, most of the haplogroup O lineages in modern Central Asia probably have been introduced by westward migrations of pastoral nomads from the eastern steppes; these may have been Turkic or Mongolic speakers at the time of their westward migration, but I would not be surprised if they had more ancient patrilineal roots among Tibetans (i.e. Sino-Tibetan speakers who practiced a lifestyle similar to that of Turkic- or Mongolic-speaking pastoral nomads of the eastern steppes). Additional thin layers probably have been contributed by the migrations to Central Asia of Chinese-speaking Muslims in the later Qing era and finally Koreans, etc. in the Soviet era, but most descendants of such recent migrants probably maintain their independent ethnic identity (or at least have knowledge of their unusual ancestry).

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