L1029 in Britain?

[Brent.B]

Hey all

I recently found out that I have a big-Y match with an Englishman (My paternal line leads to England as well). We both belong to L1029, and we apparently share 1/2 of our SNPs downstream of L1029. As far as I understand, the TMRCA of L1029 is 2100 years, and there are some that say it is 10-20% older than that (so 2500 years).

Given that we share half of our SNPs downstream of L1029, that would indicate a MCRA living around 950AD to 750AD (depending on the TMRCA used).

The goal of my genetic research is to understand how my line of L1029 came to England. Given that we have a MRCA at 950AD to 750AD, it would seem that those dates are the latest possible time for my ancestors to have entered England, and could at least theoretically have entered even before that.

Given the rarity of L1029 in Britain (and the rest of Western Europe), I am curious to see if anyone has any thoughts on how it could have arrived so early? If the 2500 TMRCA of L1029 is correct, it would even predate the first viking raids in England!

any thoughts?

[rms2]

You would probably get more responses if you posted that in the R1a subforum.

[lgmayka]

Given that we have a MRCA at 950AD to 750AD, it would seem that those dates are the latest possible time for my ancestors to have entered England, and could at least theoretically have entered even before that.

I would not necessarily conclude that, because an entire clan (with a TMRCA hundreds of years before) could cross into England en masse. But even if your assertion is true, it leave the obvious possibility of the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

[Artmar]

I would not necessarily conclude that, because an entire clan (with a TMRCA hundreds of years before) could cross into England en masse. But even if your assertion is true, it leave the obvious possibility of the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

I think that it is fairly possible that somewhat less frequent L1029 sublineage got to Denmark, assimilated and then landed in England with other Danes. It could've also explained a presence of some other "Slavic" branches of R1a, like S18681 or Y2902.

[rms2]

I don't want to be accused of attributing all R1a to Slavic peoples, but I recall that Gwynn Jones, in his excellent book, A History of the Vikings, mentioned the little known fact that there were Wends among the Anglo-Saxons. Apparently they were allies with some of the Germanic tribes in that confederation. Of course, no doubt many of the Germanics were R1a themselves. Any evidence of L1029 among the Wends or their descendants?

[Brent.B]

I would not necessarily conclude that, because an entire clan (with a TMRCA hundreds of years before) could cross into England en masse.

Yes, I was thinking that as a possibility as well. However, I would be surprised to find a tribe only in England (where the occurrences of such DNA, if it is Slavic, should be rare), while finding none in it's homeland of Central Europe/ the Baltic. Doesn't it make more sense that a rare/early sub lineage of L1029 made it to somewhere like Denmark and expanded (slightly) once it got to England?

I think that it is fairly possible that somewhat less frequent L1029 sublineage got to Denmark, assimilated and then landed in England with other Danes. It could've also explained a presence of some other "Slavic" branches of R1a, like S18681 or Y2902.

That is my thoughts. If true, the question is when did this happen? Pre-viking? (Anglo Saxon as lgmayka said) or later?

I don't want to be accused of attributing all R1a to Slavic peoples, but I recall that Gwynn Jones, in his excellent book, A History of the Vikings, mentioned the little known fact that there were Wends among the Anglo-Saxons. Apparently they were allies with some of the Germanic tribes in that confederation. Of course, no doubt many of the Germanics were R1a themselves. Any evidence of L1029 among the Wends or their descendants?

I looked through the book but can't find reference to the Wends among the Anglo Saxons? I know they participated with the Vikings, but I have never heard that the Slavs partook in the Anglo Saxon migrations.

[Michał]

That is my thoughts. If true, the question is when did this happen? Pre-viking? (Anglo Saxon as lgmayka said) or later?

I would wait for the TMRCA age estimate provided by YFull before trying to answer your question. Having said that, I consider the Viking/Danish variant the most likely scenario at the moment. For example, Cnut the Great is commonly considered to have been a son of a Slavic/Polish princess (daughter of Mieszko I and sister of Bolesław the Brave), so she likely was accompanied by some Poles when traveling to Denmark to marry Sweyn Forkbeard.

[Brent.B]

I would wait for the TMRCA age estimate provided by YFull before trying to answer your question. Having said that, I consider the Viking/Danish variant the most likely scenario at the moment. For example, Cnut the Great is commonly considered to have been a son of a Slavic/Polish princess (daughter of Mieszko I and sister of Bolesław the Great), so she likely was accompanied by some Poles when traveling to Denmark to marry Sweyn Forkbeard.

Like you say, it will be more clear once we have more solid TMRCAs.

But if we assume your suggestion that Y-Full underestimates the age of L1029 by 10-20% is correct, AND the TMRCA of this English subclade is half that of L1029 (750AD), then that would predate even the first viking raids in England (they only started in the 790's)

Cnut himself was born in 990AD. This is even later than the English L1029 MCRA assuming Y-Full's age is correct with no 10-20% extra in age (950AD). So in that case, perhaps the Danelaw?

But you are right, I'll need to wait until there is a more solid picture of the age of L1029 and my subclade to make a better guess as to what this all means.

[Huntergatherer1066]

I don't want to be accused of attributing all R1a to Slavic peoples, but I recall that Gwynn Jones, in his excellent book, A History of the Vikings, mentioned the little known fact that there were Wends among the Anglo-Saxons. Apparently they were allies with some of the Germanic tribes in that confederation. Of course, no doubt many of the Germanics were R1a themselves. Any evidence of L1029 among the Wends or their descendants?

There is this study on Sorbian genetics: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html but it looks like only autosomal DNA. It does cite a few other studies that did involve Y-DNA though that may be worth looking at but they likely all predate the discovery of L1029 and are from the STR era. Speaking of Wends, I remember driving through a historic Wendish community in Texas on a family reunion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends_of_Texas I wonder if any of these Texan Wends have done testing.

[Baltimore1937]

Old "Bluetooth", Forkbeard's daddy, hired slavic mercenaries because they were loyal directly to him. He couldn't trust his scheming palace guard, etc., what with the constant palace intrigue going on.