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Thread: I was wrong - Ancient DNA disproving theories

  1. #1
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    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain

    I was wrong - Ancient DNA disproving theories

    While the amount of ancient DNA we have is quite small, and there are still plenty of geographical voids, we have enough of it from Europe to know directionally how Europe was populated. So, I'm starting this thread as an introspective view of my own theories that have been disproved and hope that others share their own. Here's my list:

    1. The Lack of R1b in Remedello Culture
    I was an early proponent of a Copper Age entry of R1b-L23 into Europe from the steppe, but disagreed with others on the timing. I thought for sure that Remedello would be L51+ due to material culture likeness to Bell Beaker. It is not just that the three Remedello skeletons were all I2a+ that makes this nearly is the fact that they plot with other contemporary European Neolithics and lack autosomal DNA that has shifted all modern Europeans, Italians included, towards the steppe.

    2. Haplogroup J was not "the" catalyst for Central and Western European farming
    I thought this one was a no-brainer, but the dominance of G2a in early farmers showed up in the very first ancient DNA results and hasn't let up. I thought there was still a chance that it would show up in the Balkans, but now we find that Greek Neolithics were G2a as were the great majority of Anatolian Neolithics. Yes, one J2a sample was found in Anatolia, but again, not the overwhelming catalyst I was expecting.

    3. E-V13 not a strong player in Central and Western European Farming
    This one looked pretty secure when that one Cardial Culture E-V13 sample showed up, but it has been absent in new results since then.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 11-28-2015 at 07:01 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Trabzon Turkey

    Cuba Vietnam
    Well about my aDNA theories i was wrong in one thing, and i was right at one as well.

    I was wrong that Anatolian Neolethic didnt come up any "teal" (CHG) ancestry which was supposed to be "ANE" ( i was disagree with that defination and thats the what i was right).

    I was right that Teal was not step ancestry or something like ANE as far as its disribution shows us the main adress, The Caucasia-Iran pool which seems isolated from it serround during Ice Age untill the neolethic.

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  5. #3
    Legacy Account
    United Kingdom

    United Kingdom
    Everyone can see what needed changing between Ancestral Journeys (2013) and the 2nd edition/paperback (Autumn 2015), so I'll just focus on the big news since then:

    1. Jones 2015. The 4th strand in European ancestry. I had already removed speculation on a Y-DNA J entry into Europe in the Neolithic, but we are now getting a lot closer to understanding this haplogroup. I hope.
    2. Fu 2015. Evidence of interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals actually in Europe (most likely) from Peştera cu Oase. I have fought this one. But there it is. Mind you it seems that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.
    Last edited by Jean M; 11-28-2015 at 09:17 PM.

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  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Yamna/Bell Beaker/Sarmat
    Unknown, to be confirmed.

    Nothing but an exquisite feast of wrong ideas, left me chowing down on humble pie/s !

    1) Russell D. Gray and Quentin D. Atkinson I think JeanM was warning about this one too! Good educational video,

    2) R1b-z2103 would show up in Anatolia. R1b-z2103 would not be found anywhere remotely around Yamnaya and related.

    3) Age and extent of migration Ydna-IJ- M429[S2/22] and that it would be associated with so many different regions; like WHG+Antolian Farmer+CHG.

    In adjusting my wrong line of thinking; proven wrong.
    credit to JeanM - time and effort in website and her insight/patience, in explaining or attempting to explain,
    & the major blockbuster papers this year, Haak et al 2015 Allentoft et al 2015 Mathieson et al 2015 Jones et al 2015 David W. Anthony1 and Don Ringe2 2015

    videos on youtube that helped me understand:

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  9. #5
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    i didn't think "teal" went back to the ice age.

    for me it still remains to be seen if CWC got its genetic signature by admixture within its horizon

    if (western) yamnaya largely lacked r1a

    if hungarian yamnaya to beaker is really what transformed western europe

    One think that still baffles me is the supposed m269 in pre beaker spain.

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  11. #6
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    the fact that teal is real and the samara eneolithics contained an r1a does not bode well for me

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  13. #7
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    H 47

    I had always favoured some kind of role for Cucuteni-Tripolye diasporans in the Copper Age events - especially in genesis of CWC
    The lack of many findable burials (and that likely C-T were essentially "Balkan-farmer like") doesn't bode well, but I remain optimistic

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  15. #8
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)

    I was entertaining the possibility that Sintashta would possess even more of the "teal"/CHG found in Yamnaya and Afanasievo. I attributed this to the linguistic and archaeological evidence of interactions between Sintashta and the BMAC prior to the Andronovo archaeological horizon's expansion beyond the Urals.

    Instead? Sintashta ended up possessing less "teal"/CHG than Yamnaya and contained additional WHG-related admixture. Surprising, but a cautious evidence-based approach has always been my de facto stance. Davidski must still smile regularly in light of how correct his overall perspective was.

    Still find it amusing I correctly predicted Yamnaya's genetic constitution back in 2012 (see comments; "In my opinion, the Proto-Indo-European[s] were a West Asian-North European hybrid population ...").

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuadha View Post
    One think that still baffles me is the supposed m269 in pre beaker spain.
    I think we're only going to find more of that in the future. It really looks to me like there was some EHG mixture in Mesolithic Europe. It was suggested as a possibility and modeled in Haak et al. successfully. And with the new Bichon genome out, we can now test it. I think a simple F3 of Bichon,EHG;WHG would make or break it.

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  19. #10

    Germany Imperial United Kingdom Norway Spain
    I first got interested in ancient genetics 3 years ago. That was just after the G2a and Sardinian-autosomal stuff was found in Neolithic, PWC and La Brana being closest to Lithuanian, R1b/R1a associated with IEs because of finds in BBC/CWC/Andronovo. Most of what we learned this year in 2015, was highly suspected because of ancient DNA results.

    Most of what I thought back then turned out to be correct. I wasn't surprised at all by the results we got this year. The basics of what I thought about European origins in late 2012 is the same as what i think now. Although a lot of what I thought back then was based on racism and it messed up some of my theories. I couldn't bare the idea of having West Asian ancestry or dark pigmented ancestors, so I'd downplay the role of EEF or Near Eastern ancestry in Yamnaya.

    The biggest mistakes I made were.....
    Assuming major I clades around today existed in the Mesolithic.
    Assuming Eastern HGs were the same as Western HGs.
    Assuming Yamnaya was the same as WHG.
    Assuming R1a came from Yamnaya.
    Assuming Sintashta was 100% Yamnaya.

    The core of what I thought of European genetics was....
    Sardinian like people expanded in Neolithic
    Lithuanian like people expanded in Bronze age.

    So, I thought Europeans were mostly a Sardinian+Lithuanian mixture. This is mostly true. Yamnaya wasn't exactly like Lithuanians, but Lithuanians are their closest relatives. And the actually people who brought ANE to North Europe were very similar to Lithuanians. Sintashta, Unetice, and Corded Ware are very similar to Lithuanians.

    After Laz 2013 came out and everyone learned about ANE, I was very against the idea ANE in West Asia came from the Steppe. I was also against the idea Basal Eurasian expanded with farming. I always thought ANE in West Asia had a local or South Asian origin and that Basal Eurasian had been around since the Paleolithic. Both these things turned out correct. Although I thought West Asians might have WHG, which turned out wrong.

    I was also was against the idea some had that Mesolithic East Europeans were 100% ANE. I thought they had a lot of WHG, which turned out correct. Although I thought they were like 100% WHG. I also doubted Yamnaya had a lot of West Asian ancestry, which turned out correct. I also thought Yamnaya had tons of WHG, which turned out wrong. The WHG comback turned out to be from EEF mixing with WHGs. But Yamnaya has more WHG than most expected.

    I was against the idea that Andronovo was very much unlike North Europeans. I knew it wasn't a coincidence they had North European pigmentation, I knew there was some-type of close relationship. I actually suspecting back in November 2012 that Andronovo was not from Yamnaya. I suspected that Yamnaya migrated into Europe mixed with WHGs, then migrated back into Asia with Fair pigmentation they picked up in Europe. At the time I thought that idea was crazy and forgot about it, but it turned out correct.
    Last edited by Krefter; 11-29-2015 at 09:34 AM.

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