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Thread: Scientists Prepare to Solve Mystery of Sumerian DNA

  1. #61
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    It's quite likely there'll be a fair amount of G1a and J, probably T1a as well. I'd sure like to see data from the Hassuna, Samarra, Ubaid and Uruk cultures, Göbekli Tepe would be nice too.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    It's quite likely there'll be a fair amount of G1a and J, probably T1a as well. I'd sure like to see data from the Hassuna, Samarra, Ubaid and Uruk cultures, Göbekli Tepe would be nice too.
    Why do you rule out G2a? (I am not very familiar with the subclades and haplogroups in general. But is it because you think G2a orginated in Anatolia?)

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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Why do you rule out G2a? (I am not very familiar with the subclades and haplogroups in general. But is it because you think G2a orginated in Anatolia?)
    I don't necessarily rule out G2a, I just doubt it's going to be a major Mesopotamian marker considering the recent results we've seen from the Neolithic Zagros.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #64
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    Apart from that..

    Sumerian and Indo-European: a surprising connection
    https://new-indology.blogspot.gr/201...71536047256225

    Everyone should read this. The conclusion isn't necessarily correct. But it's quite impressive nevertheless.
    Last edited by Kanenas; 06-20-2016 at 01:47 PM.

  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Apart from that..

    Sumerian and Indo-European: a surprising connection
    https://new-indology.blogspot.gr/201...71536047256225

    Everyone should read this. The conclusion isn't necessarily correct. But it's quite impressive nevertheless.
    Yes, about as impressive as what Turanists say about Sumerian, Etruscan, Hurrian and practically every ancient language under the sun.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  10. #66
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    He doesn't say that there's a genetic relationship or that Sumerian is Indo-european. By the way, Turanists can be right when they challenge the theory that 'Scythian language' was Indo-Iranian but they are wrong when they claim it to have been Turkic. Ιt's not an 'either.. or' situation.

    I don't know if there's a manipulation of data, but the words he uses are not made up. For example:

    temen (Sumerian), temennu (Akkadian): http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd1/nepsd-frame.html {Search it in the search box}

    temenos (Greek): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...y%3Dte%2Fmenos

    What he says about it (I've seen that now they reconstruct the PIE root as *tm̥-n-h₂ 'to cut') :

    Sum. temen, Akk. temmenu, temennu 'foundation (deposit)', PIE *dhā-man/dha-mn̥- 'what is placed or set', Skt. dhāman- 'dwelling-place, abode; law', Greek thema 'what is placed or laid down: deposit; position of land; grammatical stem'; themethla, theme(i)lia 'foundations', themelios 'foundation-stone'. In Greek we have also temenos 'a piece of land cut off and assigned as an official domain', especially to kings and to temples of gods. According to the analysis of Dunham (1986), Sum. temen often refers to a marked off area, and also the boundaries and the corners of the area, and Whittaker remarks that temen is the reading of the 'perimeter sign', so something very similar to the temenos. Manessy-Guitton already in 1966 proposed that temenos comes from temen, but temenos seems to have a very clear etymology from the Greek tem-no 'to cut', which is made stronger by the comparison with Latin templum, originally indicating a delimited space in the sky for auspices, but also a space consecrated to the gods (the temple) and a transverse beam. So, if temen and temenos have a relation, we should admit that temen comes from the same root tem- as temenos and templum. The temen sign is done with two crosses and a rope, like this:
    x—x. Rather than a perimeter, it is one side of it, and, as Dunham remarks, it is like a string between two pegs, and he also suggests that temen indicates the foundation peg (or set of pegs). If he is right, the root of temen is more likely 'to put, place' (the pegs) than 'to cut' (the area of the foundations).
    Also the word ner, nir meant lord, lordly in Sumerian http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd1/nepsd-frame.html
    And the PIE reconstructed term is 'h₂nḗr', Greek 'aner', Sanskrit 'nara' and meant 'man, power, force)
    Last edited by Kanenas; 06-21-2016 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #67
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    ^^I'm more than willing to discuss this issue if you open a thread in the linguistics section.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    So, does anyone think we may have gotten some ideas regarding the Y-DNA haplogroups present among the Sumerians based on the recent paper on Levantine and Iranian aDNA? A Y-DNA profile of mostly E, T, G, J, and some F, L and H does not sound unreasonable. Of course, this is assuming that the Sumerians did not arrive from afar (e.g. the Steppe, S Asia, Balkans, etc.).

    I have edited the below map from Lazaridis et al. to include a rough location of Sumer:

    + R2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    + R2
    How common and diverse is R2 in Assyrians(good candidates as Sumerian-descendant)? Sumer had a population of 2 million at its height according to Wikipedia so you would'nt expect founder effects.
    I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Reznov View Post
    How common and diverse is R2 in Assyrians(good candidates as Sumerian-descendant)? Sumer had a population of 2 million at its height according to Wikipedia so you would'nt expect founder effects.
    It occurs at low frequency. We do not know how diverse it is, because only Tomasso29 has tested his Y-DNA to any significant degree beyond the mere R2 identification. If I am not mistaken there may be a non-negligible amount of R2 observed among E Mizrahim Jews. Those folks, including Iraqi Mandaeans may be even better candidates for surviving Sumerian ancestry, however negligible it may be at this point, given their more southern geographic distribution for a significant stretch of history.

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