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    E-V13 parent in Northern Europe

    Hi,

    I've just noticed there are few E-L618(xV13) results in FTDNA E-M35 project.
    This SNP was not found in this year's comprehensive paper: Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent, which means it should be extremely rare. If it had been found by the study, it would be placed under E-V1083 which is equivalent to E-Z1919 in YFull.

    Despite that this SNP exists in Northern Europe.
    Could this be the strongest argument so far in favour of European origin of E-V13?

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    We need more ancient DNA to see if E-V13 is of original European origins or not.

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    In another thread Gravetto-Danubian wrote which aDNA results could be expected in 2016.
    Related to that I have a prediction, but since it will most probably be considered as unfounded I've decided to write it in a thread opened by me, thus avoiding ruining the thread I've already mentioned.

    My prediction is that aDNA will one day show E-V13 was one of the major haplogroups of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (if not the major).
    To make it more clear, I do not see E-V13 migrating to Cucuteni-Trypillian territory from the Balkans. On the contrary, I think E-V13 came to Balkans from the area of Cucuteni culture.

    I also hope we won't wait too long to see if I was wrong.
    And yes, I'm aware of E-V13 from Neolithic Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    In another thread Gravetto-Danubian wrote which aDNA results could be expected in 2016.
    Related to that I have a prediction, but since it will most probably be considered as unfounded I've decided to write it in a thread opened by me, thus avoiding ruining the thread I've already mentioned.

    My prediction is that aDNA will one day show E-V13 was one of the major haplogroups of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (if not the major).
    To make it more clear, I do not see E-V13 migrating to Cucuteni-Trypillian territory from the Balkans. On the contrary, I think E-V13 came to Balkans from the area of Cucuteni culture.

    I also hope we won't wait too long to see if I was wrong.
    And yes, I'm aware of E-V13 from Neolithic Spain.
    Curious. How do you propose V13 got to Cucuteni ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-28-2015 at 07:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Curious. How do you propose V13 got to Cucuteni ?
    That is not something I would be able to assume.
    I remember I've already been using I1 example as an illustration on another topic, so let me use it again here. Wikipedia Haplogroup I-M253 article says:
    It is suggested that it (I1) initially dispersed from the area that is now Denmark.
    My impression is that most people would agree with this point about I1. However on the other hand, no one is actually trying to answer how did I1 reach Denmark. And that makes sense because it is almost impossible to provide such an answer.

    My assumption about E-V13 and Cucuteni-Trypillian culture is similar. It refers to Cucuteni-Trypillian as potential initial dispersion area for E-V13. I think E-V13 could've reached all parts of Europe from there, but I can't propose how did it get to Cucuteni.
    And yes, I know Cucuteni is more recent then E-V13 in Neolithic Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    That is not something I would be able to assume.
    I remember I've already been using I1 example as an illustration on another topic, so let me use it again here. Wikipedia Haplogroup I-M253 article says:
    My impression is that most people would agree with this point about I1. However on the other hand, no one is actually trying to answer how did I1 reach Denmark. And that makes sense because it is almost impossible to provide such an answer.

    My assumption about E-V13 and Cucuteni-Trypillian culture is similar. It refers to Cucuteni-Trypillian as potential initial dispersion area for E-V13. I think E-V13 could've reached all parts of Europe from there, but I can't propose how did it get to Cucuteni.
    And yes, I know Cucuteni is more recent then E-V13 in Neolithic Spain.

    Thanks for your reply brate

    However I don't think EV13 and I1 situations are comparable. Because Haplogroup I sub groups are about 20,000 years old and have been found throughout Mesolithic Europe. The same is not true for EV 13.

    So we have a story for I1 in Scandinavia, it's not 100% there yet but we're about 75%

    EV13 is only ~ 7000 years old, according to YFull and Cruciani's recent NGS paper in Hg E. But yes it's all a guessing game without direct evidence
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-28-2015 at 09:31 AM.

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    I can't completely agree, it is possible Cucuteni-Trypillian had some E-V13, but this not mean that the rest of the Balkan Neolithics did not have it. It is widely accepted, that at least M78 did not originate in Europe, but in Africa or the Middle East. There is only one accepted model how Neolithic farmers entered Europe and this is through the Southern Balkans. Another possible way - around Caucasus and the Caspian steppes is not very plausible as only E1b1b1c was found in ancient bones around that aria.
    However, some people think that the people of Varna/Hamangia culture arrived in the Balkans with the second wave of migrations from Anatolia in Middle-Late Neolithics and are not identical to the Early Neolithics. It is possible they brought E-M78 or E-V13 into the Balkans.

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    A new argument opposing Near East origin theory:
    E-V13 is common in the Balkans and may mark some of the Greek demographic input to Cyprus from the Late Bronze Age through the Iron Age.
    Source: Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements

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    I think its clear that E-V13 entered Cyprus and Crete from the north, in mainland Balkans. However, the question which remains is when E-V13 - or its predecessor (E-M78)- arrived in Europe, and SEE in particular.
    The oldest to date sample we have is from Later Neolithic Hungary (1 in Sopot culture and 1 in Lengyel, c. 4500 BC. There are the couple from Epi-Cardial Spain (c. 5000 BC).
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 02-12-2016 at 01:25 PM.

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    I personally think e-v13 reached cyprus with the greek colonisation . about e-v22 and e- m34 (uniform in all the island )so could be bronze age expansion from lebanon or the legandery pheonicians .
    best regards
    adam

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