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Thread: Picking Apart The ''Northern European'' Component

  1. #1
    J Man
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    Picking Apart The ''Northern European'' Component

    I am wondering what everyone else on here thinks about this? What is the true make up or meaning of the ''North European'' type comonents that Dienekes and Polako (David Wesolowski) have discovered in their projects? As we know Dienekes found a North European component in his own ADMIXTURE experiments and so did Polako in the Eurogenes Project. This component is observed at various ''K'' levels and looks to basically be the same in both projects and varies only a bit at different K levels in ADMIXTURE. In Dienekes latest Dodecad globe13 analysis it is called North European and the same goes for very similar components seen on GEDmatch for numerous Eurogenes runs. Dienekes has also shown that the ancient hunter-gatherers from Europe that have been tested so far such as the remains from Sweden (Pitted Ware) and Spain (La Brana) show that they belong mostly to the North European component while the ancient farmer remains such as Oetzi and Gok4 have shown themselves to be mostly Mediterranean in ADMIXTURE analysis.

    So when seen in modern Europeans I am wondering does the North European component represent an admixture of Mesolithic European hunter-gatherer genes with incoming Neolithic farmer genes and the Mediterranean component represents more of a pure Neolithic farmer type ancestry component I wonder?

    http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/g...t-results.html

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/...-dna-with.html

  2. #2
    Neolithic itself needs to be defined. The Neolithic of Eastern Europe looks like it is West Asian while Western Europe's looks more Mediterranian. I suspect that is the major difference between Eastern and Western European components)or North Sea vs South Baltic).

  3. #3
    J Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Neolithic itself needs to be defined. The Neolithic of Eastern Europe looks like it is West Asian while Western Europe's looks more Mediterranian. I suspect that is the major difference between Eastern and Western European components)or North Sea vs South Baltic).
    Yes but that does not explain how all Northern Europeans right from Ireland in the far west to Lithuania on the far east share a large amount of the North European component together. Clearly Northern Europeans are similar enough to each other overall that they all share large amounts of the Northern European component together. Of course it is highest in Lithuania and the Baltic area but it is also the dominant component in the far west such as in Britain and Ireland in many ADMIXTURE analysis.

  4. #4
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    As for me, I avoid anything technical. Outside of the basic FTDNA testing, I haven't participated. But it is quite obvious that the old traditional view of an "Atlantic" type of people still holds. I was watching a French movie the other night, and the main female star had rather black eyes, while other stars had light eyes. That probably represents Atlantic versus Franks/Visigothic/Noman. I don't think she was North African or recent immigrant. Also, in my tentative Medieval maternal tree, there is a woman who was known as "Dark Eyes" or "Black Eyes". She was not in my direct maternal line; daughter of a Welsh prince who later marrieed my direct line female. So there again, that example would have been ancient the Atlantic type, before her population was contaminated by lighter invaders.
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 01-14-2013 at 08:00 AM.

  5. #5
    J Man
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    I received a great answer from Polako a little while ago on his blog about the origin of the North European component. Here it is.

    ''Yes, it seems the so called North European component is in large part the result of a small, homogenous, but widely dispersed population of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers all the way from Iberia to Central Siberia, which was incorporated in varying degrees into more southerly populations that moved north during the Neolithic.''

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    I doubt that the story is that simple. If we look at the uniparental markers in ancient DNA, we get a picture of complete replacement of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (mtDNA U5 mainly) by incoming farmers over a very large part of Europe. So where has today's U5 come from? And where did all the Y-DNA R1b and R1a come from if the farmers are turning out to be mainly G2? Something must have happened after the Neolithic. That is the conclusion a number of geneticists are coming to.

    Although some mtDNA U seems to have survived in north-eastern niches less suited to farming and excellent for hunting and fishing, the majority of the mtDNA U5 in Northern Europe today seems to have arrived with the Indo-Europeans in the Copper Age. Around the Danube and the other river basins leading to the Black Sea, some hunter-gatherers had taken up farming and mixed with farming neighbours. The descendants of this well-stirred gene pool were the speakers of PIE. They spread widely over Europe, but were able to expand and multiply most densely where earlier farming had hit problems i.e. mainly in northern Europe.

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