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Thread: Ashkenazim: Paternally Levantine, maternally Italian?

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    Ashkenazim: Paternally Levantine, maternally Italian?

    Autosomally, they appear to be, as well as their y-dna and mtdna.

    When you remove the "Ashkenazi" cluster on tests, they come up with roughly half Italian DNA (probably closer to North Italy and Tuscany) and half Levantine or other West Asian. This combination, in total, makes them plot in Sicily.

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    There's something intuitively off about this recent bit of received wisdom about the nature of Ashkenazi Jews' European component.
    Without the famous West Eurasian plot which has Ashkenazim overlapping Sicilians and other South Italians, nobody would think to call Ashkenazim an entirely Mediterranean population. There are way too many European Jews with light Northern/Central European features to support this interpretation.

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    dear sikeliot,
    you are right that autosomally they are a mainly mix
    of levantine middle eastern + southern european
    thats what this paper shows by anlaysing snps the aschenazi are mix of middle eastern snp + southern european snp + little eastern euro snp
    https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.co...ure_poster.pdf

    p.s not all aschenazi the same
    i put 2 german jews gedmatch kits in eurogenes k36 that in my opinion is one of the best calculator in gedmatch.
    they score 0% in east central euro as oposed to me with aschenazi roots in ukraine and lithaunia who score 5%.
    the refrences for east central euro { lithaunians , belarussians, ukranians}
    on the contrary 2 of this german jews score 5% french { which is based on hgdp samples maybe there conection to the rhine i score 0.5% almost nothing}
    best regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    There's something intuitively off about this recent bit of received wisdom about the nature of Ashkenazi Jews' European component.
    Without the famous West Eurasian plot which has Ashkenazim overlapping Sicilians and other South Italians, nobody would think to call Ashkenazim an entirely Mediterranean population. There are way too many European Jews with light Northern/Central European features to support this interpretation.
    But they are not a full Mediterranean group. North Italians have a lot of Central European influence phenotypically and often look Swiss/Austrian. Combining their genes and appearance with Levantine makes them plot in Sicily, but maybe natural selection led to Italic features predominating over Levantine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But they are not a full Mediterranean group. North Italians have a lot of Central European influence phenotypically and often look Swiss/Austrian. Combining their genes and appearance with Levantine makes them plot in Sicily, but maybe natural selection led to Italic features predominating over Levantine?
    The problem with this hypothesis is the complete lack of IBD sharing with North Italians, or with Germans, or East Europeans or West Europeans. However, AJs do share IBD segments with Greeks, which may provide the link to their plotting alongside Sicilians and Maltese rather than Druze and Assyrians. Historically this would also fit, as between the late 4th century BCE and the early 1st century CE many Greek speaking Hellenistic Jewish communities were established throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and even on the shore of the Levant. Also, there might be an even older link, stretching back to the late Bronze Age and the Aegean settlers on the Levantine coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The problem with this hypothesis is the complete lack of IBD sharing with North Italians, or with Germans, or East Europeans or West Europeans. However, AJs do share IBD segments with Greeks, which may provide the link to their plotting alongside Sicilians and Maltese rather than Druze and Assyrians..
    I've seen people say this but have seen no evidence of IBD sharing with Greeks nor any study supporting it. Moreover, Greeks have high IBD sharing with the Slavic groups, and Jews not having this would imply they do not have Greek ancestry. Their haplogroups on the maternal side also match with northern Italy, not Greeks.

    If you don't have Eastern European affinity, you cannot be part Greek. This is what I have learned. There are so little East European/Balto-Slavic affinities in Sicily that it no longer makes sense to say we have Greek ancestry either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I've seen people say this but have seen no evidence of IBD sharing with Greeks nor any study supporting it. Moreover, Greeks have high IBD sharing with the Slavic groups, and Jews not having this would imply they do not have Greek ancestry. Their haplogroups on the maternal side also match with northern Italy, not Greeks.

    If you don't have Eastern European affinity, you cannot be part Greek. This is what I have learned. There are so little East European/Balto-Slavic affinities in Sicily that it no longer makes sense to say we have Greek ancestry either.
    https://verenich.files.wordpress.com...kenaziibd1.png
    This is a map of IBD sharing with Ashkenazis, it shows only Greeks, Basques and to a lesser extent East Ukrainians (in the last case it might be due to gene flow from AJs to the outer population rather than the other way around) as sharing significant IBD segments with AJs. as for Uniparental markers, most AJs (including myself) belong to markers that are today very rare outside of non Ashkenazis and are therefore difficult to trace, but many of those markers can be traced back to West Asia and the spread of agriculture in one way or another. What we really need is ancient DNA from pre exilic Jews, for now there has been a case of sampling maternal markers from a couple of pre exilic Jews, they turned out to be W, H and another one. I'm fairly sure that there is a distinction between Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks (especially those from Thessaly and Macedon).

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    jon doe,
    with east ukranians if there is indid
    ibd with aschenazi it sound very logic.
    probably jews who converted to christian relgion.
    regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    https://verenich.files.wordpress.com...kenaziibd1.png
    This is a map of IBD sharing with Ashkenazis, it shows only Greeks, Basques and to a lesser extent East Ukrainians (in the last case it might be due to gene flow from AJs to the outer population rather than the other way around) as sharing significant IBD segments with AJs. as for Uniparental markers, most AJs (including myself) belong to markers that are today very rare outside of non Ashkenazis and are therefore difficult to trace, but many of those markers can be traced back to West Asia and the spread of agriculture in one way or another. What we really need is ancient DNA from pre exilic Jews, for now there has been a case of sampling maternal markers from a couple of pre exilic Jews, they turned out to be W, H and another one. I'm fairly sure that there is a distinction between Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks (especially those from Thessaly and Macedon).
    That map does not show Greeks having a particularly higher IBD sharing with Ashkenazim than any other group. And it could very well be the reverse -- assimilated Jews in some places in Greece. Either way, if you really had Greek genes it would lead to higher autosomal influence from the Balkans and NE Europe, which you do not have and therefore are not part Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    That map does not show Greeks having a particularly higher IBD sharing with Ashkenazim than any other group. And it could very well be the reverse -- assimilated Jews in some places in Greece. Either way, if you really had Greek genes it would lead to higher autosomal influence from the Balkans and NE Europe, which you do not have and therefore are not part Greek.
    The darker the colour the higher the IBD segments so yes Greeks do share significant IBD segments with AJs. As for the Slavic admixture, it is very likely the Southeast Euro link is most likely pre Slavic migration (Hellenistic period and/or late Bronze age). And as for the geneflow from AJs to Greeks it doesn't contrast and in fact is quite plausible as well, as we know many Jews in the Roman period belonged to the early Christian movement and therefore eventually disconnected from the Jewish world for the Greek speaking East Mediterranean life.

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