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Thread: Z39589 - unites DF41, DF49, L1335, Z251, S1051, Y14240

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    Z39589 - unites DF41, DF49, L1335, Z251, S1051, Y14240

    Alex Williamson posted the following on the R-L21 Yahoo group last night:

    I've moved some men around on my tree. I've introduced a new INDEL,
    Z39589, downstream of DF13 but upstream of a handful of major branches.
    As of right now, I know it is upstream of DF41, DF49, L1335, Z251, S1051
    and Y14240. I know that DF21, L513, FGC5494, FGC11134 and ZZ10 are all
    negative for it. That leaves a large number of smaller branches which I
    don't know if they are positive or negative for Z39589.

    http://www.ytree.net/

    This SNP is an 18 base pair deletion at position 4439911, that is
    4439911-TGCAGCTTCACTCCTGAGG-T. There are actually 3 copies of
    GCAGCTTCACTCCTGAGG at that position, so this is sort of like a short STR
    going from 3 repeats down to 2. Unfortunately, this mutation is not
    covered by the BigY. As of right now, if you want it in an NGS test,
    you have to order a Full Genomes test.

    Not included in the BigY also means that in spite of the large number of
    men it represents on my tree (currently 475!), I don't have very much
    data for it. Some additional testing will have to be done to position
    all of the smaller DF13 branches as well as the men who are currently
    DF13*. About half of the big branches are Z39589+, so it could include
    a good fraction of the smaller branches as well.

    Fortunately, unlike my ZZ SNPs, Z39589 should be able to be Sanger
    sequenced. It is already available at YSEQ for ordering:
    https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=23194

    FTDNA doesn't know about it yet, but it would be great to have it on
    their tree and in their SNP packs as well.

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    I hope that pans out. The split in DF13 it makes is interesting. My first impression of it is that it represents a kind of north/south divide, but I'm not ready to argue about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I hope that pans out. The split in DF13 it makes is interesting. My first impression of it is that it represents a kind of north/south divide, but I'm not ready to argue about it.
    This kind of resolution we are seeing is pretty neat. It is getting easier and easier to imagine that L21's MRCA (not the formation or initial person in the subclade), DF13/Z2542 and his immediate descendants and DF63 may have almost known each other, or knew of each other at the least.

    I wrote to a couple of the academics in the UK last year to suggest they investigate, but I really think there is a story about this. Some will be offended if we call it a dynasty but within a few generations a tremendous and probably hegemonic society made a huge impact in NW Europe. Just because we don't know their names doesn't make them less real.

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    I know this is repetitive, but I'm just summing up for my own sake. So, thus far we have the Z39589 split in DF13 as follows:

    Z39589+

    DF41
    DF49
    L1335
    Z251
    S1051
    Y14240

    xZ39589

    DF21
    L513
    FGC5494
    FGC11134
    ZZ10

    The rest of the DF13+ subclades' Z39589 status is yet to be determined.

    So, all of these subclades share a common DF13+ ancestor (obviously), but DF41, DF49, L1335, Z251, S1051 and Y14240 share a common Z39589+ ancestor below DF13.

    I wonder if any or all of the Z39589- subclades share a common ancestor below DF13. Perhaps not.

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    Any clue about Z253 and Z255 when it comes to Z39589 status? Z253 is a pretty big subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Any clue about Z253 and Z255 when it comes to Z39589 status? Z253 is a pretty big subclade.
    CTS3386, MC14, Z253 and Z255 all fall under ZZ10. They are all negative for Z39589. ZZ10 is on palindrome P5, so it won't be on the ISOGG tree any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Any clue about Z253 and Z255 when it comes to Z39589 status? Z253 is a pretty big subclade.
    I just did a very quick and dirty text search against some FGC kits posted on the L21 Yahoo site for GCTTCACTCCTGA (very scientific : )

    Kit's that had this txt in them were 1 DF41 and 2 L1335, 1 M222, 1 DF49 & 1 Z251

    Kit's that didn't include this were 3 CTS4466, 6 DF13, 3 DF21, 3 L513, 2 Z253 & 1 S16264

    Couldn't find a Z255 unfortunately.
    Last edited by jdean; 01-03-2016 at 07:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    I just did a very quick and dirty text search against some FGC kits posted on the L21 Yahoo site for GCTTCACTCCTGA (very scientific : )

    Kit's that had this txt in them were 1 DF41 and 2 L1335, 1 M222, 1 DF49 & 1 Z251

    Kit's that didn't include this were 3 CTS4466, 6 DF13, 3 DF21, 3 L513, 2 Z253 & 1 S16264

    Couldn't find a Z255 unfortunately.
    Thanks. So for now, it's looking like Z253 is in the negative column.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamson View Post
    CTS3386, MC14, Z253 and Z255 all fall under ZZ10. They are all negative for Z39589. ZZ10 is on palindrome P5, so it won't be on the ISOGG tree any time soon.
    Ah, thanks.

    That answers that question.

    It also answers the earlier one about at least some Z39589- subclades sharing their own common ancestor under DF13.

    I am behind the times on ZZ10 obviously. I have not created a category for it at the R L21 and Subclades Project because I was unsure of its status (true of a number of new SNPs).
    Last edited by rms2; 01-03-2016 at 08:14 PM.

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    I guess ZZ10 shows up in at least one other y haplogroup, since FTDNA lists it as ZZ10_1. Right? Is it pretty reliable?
    Last edited by rms2; 01-03-2016 at 08:41 PM.

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