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Thread: Assyrian Y-DNA Distribution

  1. #11
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    Also, based on that pie chart, R1a is such a small percentage (2%) of overall Assyrian Y DNA--it comes in 9th place! I would expect Kurds to have more R1a than Assyrians, especially if we consider the Indo-Aryan contribution to the Kurdish gene pool. Assyrians are Semitic and speak a Semitic language.
    Last edited by Mamluk; 01-28-2013 at 07:45 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    Palisto, H1483 results will be interesting to see.

    You are technically right about Annihilus and I, but to a certain degree. Our family histories (oral and written) state that our ancestors came from north of the Black Sea. If my memory isn't muddled, I think Annihilus said he can verify with a "paper trail" his ancestor's arrival to Turkey from the Balkans/Greece, but oral tradition takes the ancestors further back to the Steppe. I've been interested to know the details of his history. And I assume his ancestor arrived to Turkey as a result of the workings of the Ottoman Empire.

    My family patriarch was an actual mamluk, before the Ottomans even arrived, and given the time period, came from what is now Ukraine, but not further east than Rostov oblast (in Russia). His arrival, and those of other patriarchs from my grandparents' hometown, was the result of them being sent there to occupy a conquered Templar fortress (called the Castle of Saphet) under command of Sultan Baybars, who himself was born in Ukraine! For about 700 years my family continued to occupy the same house within the Templar fortress compound until the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I.
    I see, thanks for your explanation. I totally respect the oral/writtern traditions of your and Annihilus' family, however, I remain skeptical, especially when it stretches many, many centuries in the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    I am not too familiar with details of the histories of the Kurdish and Assyrian peoples, but if Z2122 shows up there, then I would assume, among other assumptions: That Z2122 is a much older SNP--that maybe it even pre-dates the Scythians, and maybe the Hittites and Mittani brought it with them to the Fertile Crescent?
    We will see but this would mean that Z2122 is very old in the Middle East. This would also mean that the Z2122 Ashkenazi Levite cluster could be from the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    My current assumption in regards to Z2122, is that it either arose among the Scythian peoples, or among the proto-Khazars and Kipchaks-Cumans arriving from the east, during the Turkic migrations westwards, and can now be found in some of their R1a-L342 descendants.
    Time and new results will tell...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    Also, based on that pie chart, R1a is such a small percentage (2%) of overall Assyrian Y DNA--it comes in 9th place! I would expect Kurds to have more R1a than Assyrians, especially if we consider the Indo-Aryan contribution to the Kurdish gene pool. Assyrians are Semitic and speak a Semitic language.
    Y-haplogroups are highly diverse in Kurds; R1a in Kurds is above 10%, the 2nd place after J2.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    That Z2122 is a much older SNP--that maybe it even pre-dates the Scythians, and maybe the Hittites and Mittani brought it with them to the Fertile Crescent? (they themselves supposedly came from north of the Caucasus), and this may help explain why some Kurds look more like Afghans and Türkmen, than Iraqi Arabs, and speak an Indo-European language instead of a Semitic one. (?)

    My current assumption in regards to Z2122, is that it either arose among the Scythian peoples, or among the proto-Khazars and Kipchaks-Cumans arriving from the east, during the Turkic migrations westwards, and can now be found in some of their R1a-L342 descendants.
    The region around Transcaucasia[close to Assyrian lands] has R1b-Z2105 and R1a-Z2122[L342+L657-], as does the area inhabited by ancient Iranian tribes, like Pakistan. It would be logical to make a connection with proto-Indo-Iranians.
    Compare the overlap between Z2105 and Z2122 in the following three projects.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-29-2013 at 04:00 AM.

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    Twelve-marker haplotypes for all R-M269 Assyrians that I am aware of. Almost all of them are from the "Nestorian" church. Most participants in the project, as previously mentioned, are from the "Nestorian" church.

    A 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26
    B 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
    C 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
    D 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
    E 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
    F 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
    G 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
    H 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
    I 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    J 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    L 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    M 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    N 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    O 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    P 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
    Q 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30


    The individuals "K" and "Q" are L943+ confirmed. One of Marko's past 67-STR trees had their TMRCA at ~2200 years ago.

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    Nestorian Church

    It would be interesting, if the wiki info has any merit? Why would they call the site Nestorius was born in Germanicia, odd?

    Nestorian-Nestorius was born around 381/386 in Germanicia in the Roman province of Syria
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahramanmara%C5%9F

    Who exactly were the Christians in Persia?
    The existing Christians in Persia welcomed these refugees and gradually adopted Nestorian doctrine, leading the Church of Persia to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church

    Kahramanmara/Germanicia is not to far from Aleppo.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanicia

    Balochi-

    "Like other Middle eastern ethnic groups, the Baloch claim Arabian extraction, however this is disputed, asserting that they are descendant of Amir Hamza, a paternal uncle of Islamic Prophet Muhammad.
    They consistently place their first settlement in Aleppo, where they remained until"

    Balochi- It also contains archaic features reminiscent of Old Persian and Avestan.
    Balochi is a Northwestern Iranian language
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_language
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_people
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

    Are Assyrian R1b samples connected to samples coming from this project?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    Are they connected to the Lurs?
    According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Lurs speak an form of Archaic Persian.[4] linguist Don Still, Lori-Bakhtiari alongside Persian is derived directly from Old Persian.[5]
    "the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23)"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs
    Last edited by Silesian; 02-09-2013 at 01:35 AM.

  7. #16
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    In fact, Kahramanmaras has some samples in YHRD. Some of them are the closest matches I have seen, outside known Y relatives, to my R1b-L584 line -- which was from Aleppo, with a related branch coming from nearby Gaziantep, Turkey (kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ades/). I think a few Assyrians have tested positive for L584 already?
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Who exactly were the Christians in Persia?
    The existing Christians in Persia welcomed these refugees and gradually adopted Nestorian doctrine, leading the Church of Persia to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church
    The traditional "birthplace" of Syriac Christianity, or at least its liturgical tongue, is Edessa, in what is now SE Turkey. Not far from Harran. Both Arbil and Edessa were early homes of Syriac Christianity. The seat of the Church of the East's Patriarch, however, was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

    A bit more on the religion(s) of Edessa at the dawn of the Christian era, from the Doctrine of Addai:

    For I saw in this city that it abounded greatly in paganism, which is against God. Who is this Nebo,45 an idol made which ye worship, |24 and Bel,46 which ye honour? Behold, there are those among you who adore Bath Nical,47 as the inhabitants of Harran your neighbours, and Taratha,48 as the people of Mabug, and the eagle, as the Arabians, also the sun and the moon,as the rest of the inhabitants of Harran, who are as yourselves. |25 Be ye not led away captive by the rays of the luminaries and the bright star; for every one who worships creatures is cursed before God...

    ....

    Shavida and Ebednebo, chiefs of the priests of this city, with Piroz 56 and Dancu 57 their companions, when they saw the signs which he did, ran and threw down the altars upon which they sacrificed before Nebo and Bel their gods, except the great altar, which was in the midst of the city, and they cried out and said, that this is truly the disciple of the distinguished and glorious Master of whom we heard all those things, which He did in the country of Palestine. And all who believed in Christ, Addai received, and baptized them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    In fact, Kahramanmaras has some samples in YHRD. Some of them are the closest matches I have seen, outside known Y relatives, to my R1b-L584 line -- which was from Aleppo, with a related branch coming from nearby Gaziantep, Turkey (kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ades/). I think a few Assyrians have tested positive for L584 already?
    Hi AJ. Yes. Some, or a significant chunk of our R-M269 may certainly be from this region (SE Turkey/N Syria).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Are Assyrian R1b samples connected to samples coming from this project?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    Are they connected to the Lurs?
    According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Lurs speak an form of Archaic Persian.[4] linguist Don Still, Lori-Bakhtiari alongside Persian is derived directly from Old Persian.[5]
    "the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23)"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs
    Ancient Persia and Mesopotamia were very close. Particularly after the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Babylon, in the last half of the 1st millennium BCE was a melting pot of the Sumero-Akkadian people of old, West Semites, Elamites/Persians, and Greco-Macedonians.

  14. #20
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    I mention him often (And for good reason. See the "Doctrine of Addai," above), but it is interesting to note that the Sumero-Akkadian god Nabu, during the period of Persian dominance of Mesopotamia was syncretized with Indo-Iranian Mitra. During the Hellenistic period, Nabu was syncretized with Apollo.

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