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Thread: Assyrian Y-DNA Distribution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    The traditional "birthplace" of Syriac Christianity, or at least its liturgical tongue, is Edessa, in what is now SE Turkey. Not far from Harran. Both Arbil and Edessa were early homes of Syriac Christianity. The seat of the Church of the East's Patriarch, however, was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon.
    I just had a funny thought. It would be funny the Eurogenes Euro East Med, high reading in East Med, connects Western Europeans with settlements found in

    52.92 Druze
    43.64 Samaritan
    39.60 Assyrian

    which is different from the South West Asian score, high in Bedouins .

    Ancient Samaria is in between Scythiopolis and Druze ydna, L found in Harrappa region if my memory serves me correct.L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Al-Raqqah
    ydna L R1a z2122 R1b z2105 and mtdna X2e shared among Druze Altai region, and phenotypes some Druze look like Chärchän Man,could these populations be connected?
    http://www.centralasiatraveler.com/c...erchenhead.jpg


    "This study confirms the assertion of Han [1998] that the occupants of Alwighul and Krorän are not derived from proto-European steppe populations, but share closest affinities with Eastern Mediterranean populations. Further, the results demonstrate that such Eastern Mediterraneans may also be found at the urban centers of the Oxus civilization located in the north Bactrian oasis to the west. Affinities are especially close between Krorän, the latest of the Xinjiang samples, and Sapalli, the earliest of the Bactrian samples, while Alwighul and later samples from Bactria exhibit more distant phenetic affinities. This pattern may reflect a possible major shift in interregional contacts in Central Asia in the early centuries of the second millennium BCE."

    Z2105 and mtdna X2 are found in Ireland and Scotland in very small amounts.
    R1a/R1b-z2105 X2 could perhaps also be found in above Eastern populations in small amounts.
    Last edited by Silesian; 02-09-2013 at 02:18 AM.
    Jedem das Seine--suum cuique, a fundamental juridical concept meaning "to each his own"
    Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya[Volga]-3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo[South Siberia]-3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Croatia/Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Eastern Bell Beaker-]2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka-2700—2100 BC, Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE, Scythian-9th century BC up until the 4th century AD, Sarmatian-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    I mention him often (And for good reason. See the "Doctrine of Addai," above), but it is interesting to note that the Sumero-Akkadian god Nabu, during the period of Persian dominance of Mesopotamia was syncretized with Indo-Iranian Mitra. During the Hellenistic period, Nabu was syncretized with Apollo.
    Interesting -- Moses is supposed to have been buried on Mount Nevo / Jabal Nibu, in Jordan. I can't help wondering if there isn't a link to Nabu there; the pre-Abrahamic Semitic religions often had holy places, shrines, altars, etc., on mountains.
     

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    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    Interesting -- Moses is supposed to have been buried on Mount Nevo / Jabal Nibu, in Jordan. I can't help wondering if there isn't a link to Nabu there; the pre-Abrahamic Semitic religions often had holy places, shrines, altars, etc., on mountains.
    That is very interesting. Thanks, AJ. Came across this potentially relevant bit yesterday.

    The anonymous Syriac book including five of their Mysteries, used by an-Nadim gives: ...as the lambs in the flock... so are the young men sent to the Bayt al Bughadhariyin (house, hall, tent, or shrine of initiation) [60] . The beginning of the Second Mystery starts like this: It is the mystery of devils and idols, taken from their words... This author did not approve of their cults, too. In this mystery animals are mentioned ...to the dogs, ravens and ants. We know that dogs are sacred animals of Nergal (twinbrother of Sin) and the ravens of Nebo of Mercury [61] . In these shrines the young men are initiated in seven days, along seven heavenly bodies, in probably seven initiations. Twenty-two allegories are narrated to them, sung and chanted. They eat and drink and enjoy sacred meals [62] . Wabd is telling how they visit in procession their several shrines on the top of the hills; make vows in May; perform magic acts in June; make noise in July; embellish the shrine of Venus with fragrant flowers and fruits in December. During all these months they offer, and slaughter animals (chickens, lambs, and a bull to Hermes in April)...
    Source: THE HARRAN OF THE SABIANS IN THE FIRST MILLENNIUM A.D. citing The Fihrist of Al-Nadim, a tenth century survey of Muslim culture, B. Dodge

    SURETH
    'nava [nawa --> naba?]
    [Animals → Birds]
    English : a raven (black corvine bird) , a rook , a corbie , a crow (?)
    Dialect : Urmiah

    Source: Sureth Online Dictionary

    The ancient Greeks included a raven in their mythology. They used the terms for “crow” and “raven” interchangeably and in their stories, Corvus, the Crow, is allied with Apollo. It is Apollo whose chariot provides daily passage across the sky for the sun and it is under Apollo’s influence that life was illuminated by truth and excellence. Perhaps it is this association with illumination that made prophecy one of Apollo’s most important attributes.
    Source: The Raven in Mythology

    And, from Wikipedia:

    Apollo und sein Rabe [Apollo and his raven]

    Attachment 336

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    An interesting connection.

    23andMe RF match (an old one)

    3rd to Distant Cousin
    0.12% shared, 1 segment
    Y-DNA R1b1b2a

    A search of the net revealed some interesting bits. The match is a Lebanese government official, a Christian, with ancestral roots in Antioch.

    A = Antioch

    Last edited by Humanist; 02-17-2013 at 02:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Why would they call the site Nestorius was born in Germanicia, odd?
    I did a search for "Germanicia," and I eventually came across this bit. It appears to be linked to what is called "British Israelism."

    Even though I believe that the connections between the Near East and Europe have been underestimated, particularly in recent decades, much of what is contained below strikes me as a bit too fanciful. However, the writings of Pliny the Elder are interesting, I must admit.

    The Assyrian Empire developed from the city-state of Asur (named for Asshur, a son of Shem—one of Noah's three sons—see Genesis 10:1, 22). Asshur was a brother of Arphaxad—an ancestor of Abraham, who was the father of the Hebrews (Genesis 11:10–26). Thus, true Assyrians and the descendants of Abraham (the Israelites) are kindred peoples. The name Assur means "leader" or "successful." Josephus, writing in the first century ad, writes that the Assyrians "became the most fortunate of nations, beyond others" (Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6:6). In light of their abilities and contributions to Western civilization, this is also true for the Germans. Assur was worshiped as the chief god of Assyria—the god of war—and was portrayed as a solar deity with a winged disc. The Hittites also used both the winged disc and the swastika. The swastika is a symbol for the sun, power, energy, Thor's hammer and the god of weather and storms. An ancient swastika has been found on a limestone slab in front of a temple of Assur (In Search of… The Origin of Nations, White, p. 311).

    The Hittites and Assyrians also used a double-headed eagle to symbolize the sky gods—storm, thunder and the sun. These symbols reappear in the culture of Germany, Prussia and Austria, and especially the Third Reich. The Hittites (whom Assyria eventually conquered and absorbed) show linguistic and cultural links with two of the German tribes—Hessians and Prussians. Even more interesting, as historian Josef Bihl noted, are legends that Germany's oldest city, Trier, was founded in about 2000bc by Trebeta, the son of an Assyrian king named Ninus (In Deutschen Landen, p. 69). Visitors can still read an inscription on a historic house in Trier's marketplace, stating that this Assyrian colony was founded 1,300 years before Rome.

    Some historians have described the Assyrians as the "Prussians of the Ancient World" (The Ideal and Destiny, McCulloch, p. 224), submissive to centralized authority, with a "deep rooted feeling of superiority"—the idea of being a "master race" (Mass Deportations and Deportees in the Neo-Assyrian Empire, Obed, p. 89). The Assyrians were extremely nationalistic, with "a strong sense of participating in a common and native way of life" (ibid., p. 66)—similar to the German idea of a volk or a people. After the fall of the Assyrian Empire, the Roman historian Pliny mentioned a tribe of the "Assyriani" among the Scythian peoples in the Crimea north of the Black Sea (Natural History, Bk IV. XII. 81). The historian Jerome, writing in the 4th century ad, said that the "descendents of Assur" were among the Celto-Scythian-Hun hordes then invading Europe (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Jerome Letter 123, section 16). Researcher Leon Poliakov notes the ancient Bavarian account that the people of Bavaria came into central Europe from the region of Armenia by the Black Sea (The Aryan Myth, p. 76). Considering this information, it is not surprising to find medieval Arab writers describing the Germans as "Assyrians" (Israelites und Hyksos, Germol, pp. 89–90). The links between Germany and Assyria can be found, and are neither far-fetched nor imagined.

    Douglas S. Winnail

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    Humanist, do you think you could PM me the GED Match kit numbers for the two Iraqi Mandaeans? I'm interested in seeing their results for all the calculators on GED Match.

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    I just wanted to sneak this in, besides the y-dna[ have the Assyrian R1b clusters been broken into further clades beside snp z2105?] , hope you don't mind.Also I was wondering about the languages in and around Ancient Assyria. First, where does archaic Assyrian language originate from? Would it be fair to say that the Assyrians were bordered by Sumerian[language isolate] Elamites[language isolate] and North Western Iranian language? So there were in fact two language isolates besides Assyrian languages and North Western Iranian, in the region.?
    Last edited by Silesian; 02-18-2013 at 03:30 AM.
    Jedem das Seine--suum cuique, a fundamental juridical concept meaning "to each his own"
    Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya[Volga]-3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo[South Siberia]-3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Croatia/Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Eastern Bell Beaker-]2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka-2700—2100 BC, Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE, Scythian-9th century BC up until the 4th century AD, Sarmatian-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I just wanted to sneak this in, besides the y-dna[ have the Assyrian R1b clusters been broken into further clades beside snp z2105?] , hope you don't mind.Also I was wondering about the languages in and around Ancient Assyria. First, where does archaic Assyrian language originate from? Would it be fair to say that the Assyrians were bordered by Sumerian[language isolate] Elamites[language isolate] and North Western Iranian language? So there were in fact two language isolates besides Assyrian languages and North Western Iranian, in the region.?
    We have L584, and then L943, as well as L277. We have men who do not fit neatly in either L584 or L277 (not that they are that well defined!), but they are not tested through a sufficient level of resolution to say much about their phylogenetic placement beyond L23+.

    Unfortunately, the other forum is down again. I have many posts on that forum, including many posts pertaining to Akkadian. Here are a few relevant posts. And, thank you for even asking the question.

    Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

    by Gábor Zólyomi

    forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393

    A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

    In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

    These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

    In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).
    Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
    Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias


    As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.
    Ergativity in neighboring languages.

    Last edited by Humanist; 02-18-2013 at 04:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    I did a search for "Germanicia," and I eventually came across this bit. It appears to be linked to what is called "British Israelism."

    Even though I believe that the connections between the Near East and Europe have been underestimated, particularly in recent decades, much of what is contained below strikes me as a bit too fanciful. However, the writings of Pliny the Elder are interesting, I must admit.

    The Assyrian Empire developed from the city-state of Asur (named for Asshur, a son of Shem—one of Noah's three sons—see Genesis 10:1, 22). Asshur was a brother of Arphaxad—an ancestor of Abraham, who was the father of the Hebrews (Genesis 11:10–26). Thus, true Assyrians and the descendants of Abraham (the Israelites) are kindred peoples. The name Assur means "leader" or "successful." Josephus, writing in the first century ad, writes that the Assyrians "became the most fortunate of nations, beyond others" (Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6:6). In light of their abilities and contributions to Western civilization, this is also true for the Germans. Assur was worshiped as the chief god of Assyria—the god of war—and was portrayed as a solar deity with a winged disc. The Hittites also used both the winged disc and the swastika. The swastika is a symbol for the sun, power, energy, Thor's hammer and the god of weather and storms. An ancient swastika has been found on a limestone slab in front of a temple of Assur (In Search of… The Origin of Nations, White, p. 311).

    The Hittites and Assyrians also used a double-headed eagle to symbolize the sky gods—storm, thunder and the sun. These symbols reappear in the culture of Germany, Prussia and Austria, and especially the Third Reich. The Hittites (whom Assyria eventually conquered and absorbed) show linguistic and cultural links with two of the German tribes—Hessians and Prussians. Even more interesting, as historian Josef Bihl noted, are legends that Germany's oldest city, Trier, was founded in about 2000bc by Trebeta, the son of an Assyrian king named Ninus (In Deutschen Landen, p. 69). Visitors can still read an inscription on a historic house in Trier's marketplace, stating that this Assyrian colony was founded 1,300 years before Rome.

    Some historians have described the Assyrians as the "Prussians of the Ancient World" (The Ideal and Destiny, McCulloch, p. 224), submissive to centralized authority, with a "deep rooted feeling of superiority"—the idea of being a "master race" (Mass Deportations and Deportees in the Neo-Assyrian Empire, Obed, p. 89). The Assyrians were extremely nationalistic, with "a strong sense of participating in a common and native way of life" (ibid., p. 66)—similar to the German idea of a volk or a people. After the fall of the Assyrian Empire, the Roman historian Pliny mentioned a tribe of the "Assyriani" among the Scythian peoples in the Crimea north of the Black Sea (Natural History, Bk IV. XII. 81). The historian Jerome, writing in the 4th century ad, said that the "descendents of Assur" were among the Celto-Scythian-Hun hordes then invading Europe (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Jerome Letter 123, section 16). Researcher Leon Poliakov notes the ancient Bavarian account that the people of Bavaria came into central Europe from the region of Armenia by the Black Sea (The Aryan Myth, p. 76). Considering this information, it is not surprising to find medieval Arab writers describing the Germans as "Assyrians" (Israelites und Hyksos, Germol, pp. 89–90). The links between Germany and Assyria can be found, and are neither far-fetched nor imagined.

    Douglas S. Winnail
    Reading a bit further on this, I came across these bits. Of course, they may not have a solid basis in fact. But, I thought it was interesting enough to share, given the discussion.

    Note "Assyrii" and "Chalybes."

    Wikipedia





    The Assyrians sometimes moved and were in different areas. Around 530 B.C.:

    Scylax of Caryanda names the coast of the Black Sea, from the Chalybians to Armene, westward of the promontory of Syrias, Assyria. Strabo states that these Syrians, who extended from the Taurus northwards as far as the Pontus; were named Leuko-Syrians, i.e. white Syrians. (Dunker M. The history of antiquity, Volume 1. Evelyn Abbott Publisher R. Bentley & son, 1877. Original from the University of Michigan, Digitized Sep 12, 2007, p. 540)
    Wikipedia

    Chalybes

    The Chalybes or Chaldoi (Χάλυβες, Χάλυβοι, Χάλδοι. Georgian ხალიბები) were a Georgian tribe of Classical Antiquity who inhabited the area of Pontus and Cappadocia, located in modern Turkey.

    They lived in the northern area of Anatolia known as Chaldia, near the shores of the Black Sea, from the Halys to Pharnakeia and Trabzon in the east and as far south as eastern Asia Minor.

    The main sources for the history of the Chaldoi are accounts from classical authors, including Homer, Strabo, and Xenophon. In Roman times, the Chaldaei (homonymous but unrelated to the Semitic Chaldeans) and Chalybes are mentioned by Plutarch (Lucull. c. 14) as settled in Pontus and Cappadocia, or the Pontus Cappadocicus section of the Roman province of Pontus.

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    Any of the modern languages ergative in the area?

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