Page 1 of 29 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 282

Thread: Die Hard 2016: The Iberian LGM Refuge and R1b

  1. #1
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland

    Question Die Hard 2016: The Iberian LGM Refuge and R1b

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rocca
    Indeed, and it would be valuable to have data to disprove the Iberian Copper Age link either way... as you are well aware, there are those that still talk up the Iberian refugium as the birthplace of all of Western Europe as fact.
    The quote above was taken from Rich's post here.

    Although I know what Rich wrote is true, it started me wondering how anyone could still, in 2016, be maintaining that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian (aka Iberian) LGM Refuge and spread east and north into the rest of Europe from there after the LGM ended. Given all of the ancient dna results of the last several years, the R1b-L23 in Yamnaya, the Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal dna in Bell Beaker and in the Bell Beaker-derived Bronze Age Rathlin Island men, and the Yamnaya-like component in modern Europeans, even in places untouched by Corded Ware, how can anyone still hold the opinion that the R1b ancestral to that of modern European and European-descended men spent the LGM in Iberia?

    I know of one outspoken person with his or her own blog who holds that view, but does anyone here share it? If so, perhaps you would care to explain why.

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2016),  David Mc (01-11-2016),  dp (01-11-2016),  jdean (01-11-2016),  Jenny (01-12-2016),  Jessie (01-20-2016),  Kopfjäger (01-12-2016),  Muircheartaigh (01-12-2016),  N21163 (01-13-2016),  Padre Organtino (03-13-2016),  Radboud (01-20-2016),  Tomenable (01-26-2016),  Viktor Reznov (01-18-2016)

  3. #2
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    Posts
    853
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Italian

    Italy
    We first must have early Iberian BB results, then, even if they will be something different from R1b, some people continue to believe in unscientific dogmas because their biased views of history and civilization.

    I've always gone mad when I read something from R1b people sustaining an Iberian refugium / Vasconic link of their ancestors: are they proud to be the victims of history? That's a thing I don't understand...

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Romilius For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2016),  jdean (01-12-2016),  psaglav (01-12-2016),  rms2 (01-12-2016)

  5. #3
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I think even if the earliest Bell Beaker has R1b present in it, a lot will depend on whether or not there is a steppe autosomal component present, as well. Jean Manco believes that a copper-using group from the steppe went to Iberia very early and formed the catalyst for Bell Beaker there. She has dubbed them the "Stelae People" because she sees a connection between Iberian grave stelae and grave stelae on the steppe and traces a stelae trail across Europe. She could be right.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2016)

  7. #4
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    Posts
    853
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Italian

    Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think even if the earliest Bell Beaker has R1b present in it, a lot will depend on whether or not there is a steppe autosomal component present, as well. Jean Manco believes that a copper-using group from the steppe went to Iberia very early and formed the catalyst for Bell Beaker there. She has dubbed them the "Stelae People" because she sees a connection between Iberian grave stelae and grave stelae on the steppe and traces a stelae trail across Europe. She could be right.
    Perhaps, but, if it happened, it would be interesting to state what kind of language did those first migrant from the steppe speak. It will be another Pandora's crate opened...

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Romilius For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2016),  rms2 (01-12-2016)

  9. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,480
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Considering the fact that we still have people clinging to Anatolia as the PIE urheimat while others are busy producing funny theories such as the "Paleolithic Continuity Theory" despite centuries of research highlighting the exact opposite, I wouldn't exactly be surprised to find that some are willing to defend the R1b Cro-Magnon theory till their very last breath. If they've managed to dismiss all the evidence to date, we can safely conclude that nothing will change their mind (not even testing every single prehistoric sample). It's quite natural, I expect that, denial is the first stage of grief after all.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  10. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     ChrisR (01-20-2016),  Inigo Montoya (01-13-2016),  jdean (01-18-2016),  Jean M (01-21-2016),  Krefter (01-12-2016),  lgmayka (01-13-2016),  Michał (01-13-2016),  psaglav (01-12-2016),  rms2 (01-13-2016),  Viktor Reznov (01-18-2016)

  11. #6
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Considering the fact that we still have people clinging to Anatolia as the PIE urheimat while others are busy producing funny theories such as the "Paleolithic Continuity Theory" despite centuries of research highlighting the exact opposite, I wouldn't exactly be surprised to find that some are willing to defend the R1b Cro-Magnon theory till their very last breath. If they've managed to dismiss all the evidence to date, we can safely conclude that nothing will change their mind (not even testing every single prehistoric sample). It's quite natural, I expect that, denial is the first stage of grief after all.
    I agree. It seems to me the real clincher thus far is the ancient autosomal dna, which is showing a widespread steppe element in post Neolithic Europe, even in places untouched by Corded Ware, that was absent before. Add to that the absence of R1b-L23 before the Copper Age or Early Bronze Age, and the spread of Indo-European languages. It seems pretty overwhelming to me.

    I don't know how one explains that all away or somehow excises R1b from it and maintains it was there all the time from the Paleolithic onward.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-13-2016 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Awkward wording corrected

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-13-2016),  jdean (01-18-2016),  Viktor Reznov (01-18-2016)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    98
    Sex
    Location
    Sharon plain
    Ethnicity
    Jewish
    Nationality
    Israeli
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2a-M92
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a

    Israel Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I agree. It seems to me the real clincher thus far is the ancient autosomal dna, which is showing a widespread steppe element in post Neolithic Europe, even in places untouched by Corded Ware, that was absent before. Add to that the absence of R1b-L23 before the Copper Age or Early Bronze Age, and the spread of Indo-European languages. It seems pretty overwhelming to me.

    I don't know how one explains that all away or somehow excises R1b from it and maintains it was there all the time from the Paleolithic onward.
    This is the kind of stuff that really dumb youtube videos are made from. You know the type. "Minoans discovered America", "Semitic came to Ireland", etc.
    A good example someone just sent me:

    rms2, try not to kill yourself after seeing the title of this video
    Edit:

    hehehe
    Last edited by Viktor Reznov; 01-18-2016 at 08:52 AM.
    I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions.
    Avatar: Copper age figurine from the Negev, Israel.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Viktor Reznov For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-18-2016),  Dubhthach (01-20-2016),  Michał (01-20-2016),  rms2 (01-19-2016)

  15. #8
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,418
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I agree. It seems to me the real clincher thus far is the ancient autosomal dna, which is showing a widespread steppe element in post Neolithic Europe, even in places untouched by Corded Ware, that was absent before. Add to that the absence of R1b-L23 before the Copper Age or Early Bronze Age, and the spread of Indo-European languages. It seems pretty overwhelming to me.

    I don't know how one explains that all away or somehow excises R1b from it and maintains it was there all the time from the Paleolithic onward.
    Milford Wolpoff has not changed his multiregional evolution theory, as outdated as this is, and with DNA evidence that disputes his theory. Just an example.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Webb For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (01-19-2016)

  17. #9
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor Reznov View Post
    This is the kind of stuff that really dumb youtube videos are made from. You know the type. "Minoans discovered America", "Semitic came to Ireland", etc.
    A good example someone just sent me:

    rms2, try not to kill yourself after seeing the title of this video
    Edit:

    hehehe
    Whoa! I was not aware anything that elaborate or well illustrated existed. Strange, but I kind of enjoyed the mythic cartoon treatment of the subject. Funny how the R1b brother becomes a kind of demonic Cain figure to his R1a brother's Abel. Of course, chasing strange women will do that to a guy.

    One wonders where they came up with all that "West Babylon" malarkey.

    Anyway, it was entertaining. Thanks!

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-20-2016),  Viktor Reznov (01-19-2016)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    130
    Sex
    Location
    Internets
    Ethnicity
    Fire and Fury
    Nationality
    Global
    Y-DNA (P)
    SRY2627/Z207

    Pitcairn Botswana French Southern and Antarctic Lands Uganda Ayyubid Dynasty Niger
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The quote above was taken from Rich's post here.

    Although I know what Rich wrote is true, it started me wondering how anyone could still, in 2016, be maintaining that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian (aka Iberian) LGM Refuge and spread east and north into the rest of Europe from there after the LGM ended. Given all of the ancient dna results of the last several years, the R1b-L23 in Yamnaya, the Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal dna in Bell Beaker and in the Bell Beaker-derived Bronze Age Rathlin Island men, and the Yamnaya-like component in modern Europeans, even in places untouched by Corded Ware, how can anyone still hold the opinion that the R1b ancestral to that of modern European and European-descended men spent the LGM in Iberia?

    I know of one outspoken person with his or her own blog who holds that view, but does anyone here share it? If so, perhaps you would care to explain why.
    HG R* is from pre-LGM Iberian Pyrenees/Cantabrian Cordillera... R-M207 migrated east far to southern central Siberia as the older extinct lineages or branches died off in Western Europe... No remains will ever be found because they were chewed up or consumed in the retreating ice sheets....

Page 1 of 29 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Hard to work this one out
    By firemonkey in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-22-2019, 10:35 PM
  2. Replies: 46
    Last Post: 06-18-2016, 10:39 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-10-2016, 10:04 PM
  4. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-24-2013, 01:28 PM
  5. Genetic study finds Ice Age salmon refuge
    By Clinton P in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-23-2013, 12:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •