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Thread: Brahui-Kurd Origins

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    Lightbulb Brahui-Kurd Origins


    I was tempted to look further into the origins of Brahuis, when my genetic analysis of Kurds and Brahuis indicated that they were a near clade. IBS and Dstats for Brahuis showed that Iraqi Kurds were very similar to Brahuis genetically, much more so than some of the other contenders for Brahui ancestry such as Syrians and Turks. I plan to further investigate this using formal stats over the coming weeks.

    I was able to find a few 19th century, and early 20th century books, that reference the Kurd-Brahui connection, written by individuals, whom I like to refer to as expeditionary Historians or perhaps Anthropologists associated with British India. These digitized books are available for download via google. The material I post comes right out of those books, and I have made no attempt to correct spelling.

    Here is material from the 1st of several books that I will refer to over the next few weeks.


    CENSUS OF INDIA, 1901.
    Volume I.
    BY
    H. H. RISLET, I.C.S., O.I.E.,
    OFFICER OP THE FRENCH ACADEMY,
    COBBE8PONDINQ MEMBER OF BERLIN ANTHROPOLOGICAL SOCIETY.

    CALCUTTA :
    OFFICE OF TEE SUPERINTENDENT OF GOVERNMENT PRINTING, INDIA.
    1903.

    Page 66
    From the references in Sir H. Elliot's History of India, Vol. I., it may be pretty certainly be concluded that the Brahui kingdom as it now exists is co-extensive with the countries which were known to the early geographers as Makran, Turan, with its capital ut Khozdar, and Nudha (otherwise called Budha by Elliot), with its capital at Kaudabel or Kandail, the modern Gandava.

    The principal population of these countries consisted of Jats and people resembling the KURDS. Now both General Cunningham and Colonel Tod agree that the Jats were of the Scythian stock, and the name Turan is used by Persian historians to distinguish the countries
    beyond the Oxus river from those to the south of it.

    Page 67
    The Bangulzai, the Langav, and the Lehri are described as branches of the Rinds, that is, of the Baloch, and tho Ex- Khan net s that they were in Baluchistan before the Brahuis. The Raisani, Saparra, and Shahwani are said to be Afghans, while the KURDS and Muhammad Hasni or Mamasani came from Persia. The Bizanjo, Vengal, Sajdi, and Zehri are put down as Jagdals or Jag 'als, i.e., Jats. but the chief of the Zehris is said to be an Afghan. Finally the Muhammad Shahi and Nichari are described as very ancient inhabitants of the country, who were living in it previous to the advent of the Rinds.

    Page 68
    Now the historians whom I have quoted speak of the Jats as originally inhabiting the country, and indicate that they were followed by the KURDS and Baloch. At the same time there are indications of an influx of Afghans from the east, for we find the Raisanis, who are Afghans, assisting the Brahui rulers to get possession of Kalat from the Baloch. The details therefore given by the Ex-Khan are of special interest ; in that they tally almost exactly with the waves of migration which we know to have passed over the country.

    Next to the Langavs the Bangulzais are the most numerous among the Brahuis. The tribe has been largely recruited from outsiders, and one of its clans, the Garranis, speak Balochi, whilst the rest speak Brahui. Their head-quarters are situated at Isplinji, which is said to have been conquered from the KURDS, and they also hold land at Mastung and in Kachhi.

    Groups bearing this name are to be found scattered throughout Baluchistan, and I am told that there are some among the Punjab Baloch also. It is a curious thing, that, among the people of Las Bela, KURD is the appellation in general use for the Brahuis and KURDI for the Brahui language. The KURDS in Baluchistan are, without doubt, descended from the KURDS of KURDISTAN in Northern Persia, but they early appear to have migrated southward, and we hear of a portion of them inhabiting Kirman in 934 A.D.

    The importance which the tribe has acquired among the Brahuis is due to its position in the Dasht-i-bedaulat at the head of the Bolan Pass, whence they had ample opportunity for exercising their predatory habits. One of their largest clans, the Satakzais, is now practically independent of the main body.


    Page 71
    But with the process of integration was involved another, viz., disintegration ; and so we find groups of tribesmen breaking away from the parent stock and either setting up for themselves, like the KURDS at the head of the Bolan, or attaching themselves to some other tribe.



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    Some Bruhui are G-PF 3146 but not tested thus far for downstream markers. I have some data on those tested but not at hand..

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    ????

    what do you base this on ? I am from Dersim and I have several Kit Numbers from Dersim and we dont overlap with them genetically

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    ????

    what do you base this on ? I am from Dersim and I have several Kit Numbers from Dersim and we dont overlap with them genetically
    I am not exactly sure what you mean by overlap but if you mean that your kits don't share long segments with Brahuis, first I can't imagine there are more than a handful of Brahui kits in the system, second sharing long segments is not a requirement for individuals within an ethnic group (for example many Kurds don't share long segments with other Kurds), and third, long segment sharing is rare for splits older than 1000 years)

    Dstats posted on prior pages show that some Brahuis share the most genetic drift with some Kurds.

    There is quite a bit of diversity amongst Kurds.
    Last edited by Kurd; 11-22-2016 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    I am not exactly sure what you mean by overlap but if you mean that your kits don't share long segments with Brahuis, first I can't imagine there are more than a handful of Brahui kits in the system, second sharing long segments is not a requirement for individuals within an ethnic group (for example many Kurds don't share long segments with other Kurds), and third, long segment sharing is rare for splits older than 1000 years)

    Dstats posted on prior pages show that some Brahuis share the most genetic drift with some Kurds.

    There is quite a bit of diversity amongst Kurds.
    what I mean is that the component scores (percentages) are very different and we dont cluster with them in oracle lists

    brahuis overlap with their neighbors not us

    Kurds are diverse yeah but not to a point like that unless the person has also other ancestry . MfA and other Kurdish members will agree with me on that .

    and this is not meant as an offense and I hope I dont get banned for this
    Last edited by Magnetic; 11-23-2016 at 03:24 AM.

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    Ali Ahmed Kurd is a Brahui lawyer from Quetta Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    what I mean is that the component scores (percentages) are very different and we dont cluster with them in oracle lists

    brahuis overlap with their neighbors not us

    Kurds are diverse yeah but not to a point like that unless the person has also other ancestry . MfA and other Kurdish members will agree with me on that .

    and this is not meant as an offense and I hope I dont get banned for this
    Aah ok...you are referring to allele frequencies and ADMIXTURE...

    Well, the distinct clustering of the Brahui on PCAs is pretty normal and expected. Their distances from Kurds will depend on the calculator and the component references. For example in the K6 Iran N calculator they will cluster closer to Kurds, because both are substantially Iran N derived, whereas with a calculator that has a Baloch/ Gedrosian component they will be distant from each other, because this component is based on a few SNPs that are "unique" to Baloch/Brahui and those SNPs are isolation drift related.

    So basically, the Baloch/Gedrosian component is based on a few drifted/ mutated "W Asian" positions in the genome. I have previously explained how this can happen, and will briefly describe again.

    Drift due to founder effect:

    Assume you have a population of Kurds, Kurd A, that splits into 2 groups, Kurd B [remain in Kurdistan], and Kurd C[migrate to Balochistan and become known as Brahui]. For simplicity assume Kurd A, consists of 10 members, and before the split, 8 members are of Kurd A have the A allele at postion rs111, and 2 have the C allele. So the frequency of allele A is 80% in Kurd A. Assume 2 members with the A allele, and 2 with the C allele split off to form the Kurd C [Brahui] tribe. So this act of splitting changes the allele frequencies in the Kurds.

    So, Kurd B is left with 6 members [ all have the A allele at position rs111, 100% allele frequency minor allele], whereas Kurd C [Brahui] has 4 members [2 have the A allele, and 2 the C allele, 50% allele frequency minor allele]. Add to this the mutations in the isolated Brahui, and you can see how they can have a few SNPs which are different from the Kurds in Kurdistan. Also, don't forget that Kurd C [Brahui] became more isolated from mixing with local Caucausians after their split. There you have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaan View Post
    Ali Ahmed Kurd is a Brahui lawyer from Quetta Pakistan.
    The Kurd Brahui tribe has several sub-tribes. They are listed in "The Baluch and The Brahui and Their Rebellions", Tribal Analysis Center, Williamsburg, VA, 2009. http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/...e%20Brahui.pdf

    Here are some excerpts:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    [IMG][/IMG]

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    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

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