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Thread: italian j1, questions about my haplogroup

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Thanks. Ok, so until I decide to do further testing we could probably say that this haplogroup was born in or around Mesopotamia about 5000 years ago and the carrier already spoke some semitic language and the rest of the route to Europe is just guesswork. Do you agree? Thanks again
    I sincerely doubt L858 arose in Mesopotamia, it seems far more likely to me that it initially arose around the Levant... But that's just me and I'm sure others will beg to differ, more research is needed to say for sure. What I'm quite certain of is that your paternal ancestors spoke a West Semitic language at some point.
    To those unfamiliar with J1-YSC234's phylogeny that's a bit as if someone found out he (or she) was R1b-L11.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-15-2016 at 02:52 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #12
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    Most J1 in Europe are very likely recent and from North Africa (if we exclude isolated Berber groups, J1 is found generally at frequencies around 20-25% in North Africa)

    See for example this study by Capelli

    Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe, Capelli 2009
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 01-15-2016 at 07:18 AM.
    Global 25 Ancient Scaled: Anatolia_Barcin_N 47.2, Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 26.6, MAR_Iberomaurusian 11, WHG 6, Yoruba 5.2, Levant_PPNB,4
    Global 25 Scaled Closest Individuals (Moderns and Ancients): Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7425 3.29%, Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I8146 3.93%, Lebanon_Medieval_Mixed:SI-41 3.97%

  4. #13
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    Hello, Thanks. On my genographic project results there's a map showing my ancestors route from Africa, but it stopped at p58 and put p58 in mesopotamia so I thought that was the area. So, if after my haplogroup there aren't jewish branches it means that my ancestors probably spoke arabic (I think there were also semitic languages in mesopotamia) and came to italy as phoenicians or later muslims from southern italy (sicily) or perhaps some maverick iron age middle eastern hippy. Thanks

  5. #14
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    Regueiro's article: From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective. No Arab L222.2 J1 types were found in Iberia, only Berber E-M81 types.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701402

    J1a2b2a*-L222.2 is the only J1a2b-lineage observed in the Northwest African (NA) populations of Tunisia and Morocco. In this region, this mutation displays frequencies of 25% in Sfax, 15% in Béja and 17% in Morocco. However, no individuals with this sub-haplogroup were found in Spain where only paragroup J1a2b2*-L147.1 is detected. The highest frequency of L222.2 is seen in Qatar (39%) followed by Oman (12%), Egypt and Bahrain (5%), and UAE and Yemen (2%). Conversely, the L147.1 mutation ranges from 59% in Yemen to 2% in Bahrain. It is interesting to note that J1a2b2a1-L65.2 is observed at low frequencies in Qatar (7%), Bahrain and Yemen (2%) but reaches 21% in UAE. Haplogroup J1a2b1-L92.1 was only detected in two populations and at low frequencies: UAE (4%) and Oman (3%). Undefined paragroup J1a2b*-P58 is found at low frequencies in Yemen (6%), Bahrain (5%), Oman (2%) and Qatar (1%).
    European J1 cases have a different dynamic in relation to North Africa. History is decisive to understand the presence and expansions of genetic clusters. I think we can observe religious origins as a very important factor in the formation of European J1 clusters in the last 1000 years. In the case of Iberia and Portugal the "Cristãos Velhos" - Old Christians had a major difference in relation to the Moor and Jew groups after the Reconquista. The demographic impact of the Reconquista can be seen in the development and expansion of the Christian J1 clusters in the Portuguese Empire while war, persecution and difficulties afflicted the others. As the Romans used to say: "Vae victis!", which translates to "woe to the conquered!". Every people has won wars and also lost wars throughout history. I think my cluster J1-M365 had a star-like expansion in the last 1000 years in the Portuguese Empire because they were Christians with a complete difference and genetic distance from the other Non_Christian J1 groups in Western Iberia in which we can still find in very small, isolated and fragmented numbers there nowadays.
    Iberian Berber E-M81 are very interesting and recent in Europe. 2100 ybp only !
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/

    Quote Originally Posted by rz1706 View Post
    Most J1 in Europe are very likely recent and from North Africa (if we exclude isolated Berber groups, J1 is found generally at frequencies around 20-25% in North Africa)

    See for example this study by Capelli

    Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe, Capelli 2009
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, Thanks. On my genographic project results there's a map showing my ancestors route from Africa, but it stopped at p58 and put p58 in mesopotamia so I thought that was the area. So, if after my haplogroup there aren't jewish branches it means that my ancestors probably spoke arabic (I think there were also semitic languages in mesopotamia) and came to italy as phoenicians or later muslims from southern italy (sicily) or perhaps some maverick iron age middle eastern hippy. Thanks
    I know of at least 6 jewish branches under L858, moreover only a specific branch of L858 (FGC12 and its sub-branch FGC1723 in particular) is overwhelmingly associated with Arabic speakers. So there a loads of possibilities out there, the best thing to do would be to test further in order to find a specific subclade.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I sincerely doubt L858 arose in Mesopotamia, it seems far more likely to me that it initially arose around the Levant... But that's just me and I'm sure others will beg to differ, more research is needed to say for sure. What I'm quite certain of is that your paternal ancestors spoke a West Semitic language at some point.
    To those unfamiliar with J1-YSC234's phylogeny that's a bit as if someone found out he (or she) was R1b-L11.
    Do you of a online / offline resource with any detailed information on the various branches of J1, I'm also Italian J1-PF4872. Can't find anything on the PF4872.

    Going to upgrade to Y67 first of next month, maybe Y111.

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Get FTDNA STR DYS markers, 12, 25, 37, 67, 111. Get detailed SNPs (FTDNA Big Y, Full Genomes Corporation). Just observe the geography of the SNPs and STR matches. You can try to find when your haplotype/cluster arrived in your place/region/country from where and try to estimate the age and number of your lineage nodes and the possible itineraries and possible ethno-historical vectors, religions and polities your ancestors-SNPs lived. Welcome to the game !
    Great advice

  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasusphm1 View Post
    Great advice
    I see nothing good in that advice other than the NGS tests , STR tests are obsolete and a complete waste of money.

  13. #19
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    Do you rule out J1 from greeks and etruscans? From one source I read that the greeks (who owned most of southern Italy) carried greek R1b plus J2 and E1b1b. The etruscans, who apparently had partially central european indoeuropean origin, didn't speak an indoeuropean language and some say had also a contributin from asia minor. Actually, they were a bit too civilised to be the classic central european tribe. In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1

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  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasusphm1 View Post
    Do you of a online / offline resource with any detailed information on the various branches of J1, I'm also Italian J1-PF4872. Can't find anything on the PF4872.

    Going to upgrade to Y67 first of next month, maybe Y111.
    PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.

    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Do you rule out J1 from greeks and etruscans? From one source I read that the greeks (who owned most of southern Italy) carried greek R1b plus J2 and E1b1b. The etruscans, who apparently had partially central european indoeuropean origin, didn't speak an indoeuropean language and some say had also a contributin from asia minor. Actually, they were a bit too civilised to be the classic central european tribe. In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1
    I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, as long as it's not a scenario involving an arrival prior to the copper age. That being said, I'd like to see more J1 data from Italy, that would certainly help in gauging the validity of an association between J1 and the Etruscans.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-17-2016 at 05:27 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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