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Thread: italian j1, questions about my haplogroup

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.



    I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, as long as it's not a scenario involving an arrival prior to the copper age. That being said, I'd like to see more J1 data from Italy, that would certainly help in gauging the validity of an association between J1 and the Etruscans.
    Thank you all for you replies to my post. I really appreciate taking time. Interesting Sidon and Greece was brought up.

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     Agamemnon (01-18-2016)

  3. #22
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    Hello, there's one thing that I hadn't noticed on the genographic project results. There's a map called heatmap where they show the places where there's the highest percentage of my haplogroup. I don't know whether they used mine or the closest they had. It shows the areas of middle east, georgia, moldova, romania. They also propose a route which goes from the middle east to Georgia, Moldova, Romania and continues through central europe to north eastern france, where they show another area. But perhaps is just because I placed a national geographic order from Paris.

    I have also noticed that no one knows the origin of my surname, Brega, in Italy. On the other hand, apart from Italy, there's a Brega surname especially in Moldova, Romania an Ukraine which is a local surname. Sources say it comes from the slavonic "Breg" which means Hill. It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova. I know that any italian had a surname by the 14th century and mine appeared in milan during this period. I think I'm going too far but there's also the serbian name bregovic which should have the same origin. Is there anyone less ignorant than me who could tell me whether this could be a possible medieval route?

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova.
    I wouldn't come to conclusions based on that. People hide their ancestry, and then over generations their roots are forgotten.

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  6. #24
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    sorry about the idiotic phrase with regards to the nationalist

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     Táltos (01-18-2016)

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, there's one thing that I hadn't noticed on the genographic project results. There's a map called heatmap where they show the places where there's the highest percentage of my haplogroup. I don't know whether they used mine or the closest they had. It shows the areas of middle east, georgia, moldova, romania. They also propose a route which goes from the middle east to Georgia, Moldova, Romania and continues through central europe to north eastern france, where they show another area. But perhaps is just because I placed a national geographic order from Paris.

    I have also noticed that no one knows the origin of my surname, Brega, in Italy. On the other hand, apart from Italy, there's a Brega surname especially in Moldova, Romania an Ukraine which is a local surname. Sources say it comes from the slavonic "Breg" which means Hill. It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova. I know that any italian had a surname by the 14th century and mine appeared in milan during this period. I think I'm going too far but there's also the serbian name bregovic which should have the same origin. Is there anyone less ignorant than me who could tell me whether this could be a possible medieval route?
    That sounds a tad bit far-fetched quite frankly, Old Church Slavonic brěgŭ comes from Proto-Slavic *bȇrgъ and has cognates in nearly every branch of the IE language family (such as Gaulish briga "hill", Old Norse berg "cliff", Old Armenian barjr "high", Hittite parku- "tall" and so on and so forth) , which enables us to accurately reconstruct its PIE root as *bʰerǵʰ-.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  10. #26
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    Many thanks anyone for your help. Especially Agamennon. I'll try and read some stuff to understand more.

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     Agamemnon (01-21-2016)

  12. #27
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    Hello, I resurface again because I’ve discovered some previously ignored historical background while searching my last name origins. I don’t have proof yet that my last name is from Ancona, my father’s town on the Adriatic coast but I found out the origins of the town. (I’m still browsing ancient Napoleonic registry documents to have some clues about my last name) Greek colony since 375 B.C. with an important harbour with strong links with the Levant. Then one of the most important roman harbours, eventually a maritime republic during the middle ages with also a strong relationship with the Levant and the Ottoman Empire. Also, the village of Fabriano, where I’ve discovered my family was, is probably the most important paper mill in Italy, whose technique is an evolution of the Arabic one. They previously just imported Arabic paper. Some historians talk about Arabic workforce. Also, this town had one of the most important Jewish communities in Italy. (First Jewish slaves from Rome, then Jewish merchants come by boat, then many Jewish from Spain after 1492)
    You said that I should do further y STR testing because my geno 2.0 next generation test was about SNPs therefore deep ancestry. But, for the moment, just to get an historical direction in my search for the origin of my last name and given that my haplogroup is J-z1884, is it possible, just possible, that my family has ancient forgotten Jewish or Arabic roots? I’ve noticed that my haplogroup comes just after the Cohen haplogroup and before the historical Muslim haplogroup, and probably also before other Jewish branches. Also, do you think this historical background is relevant?

    The other question is, when I decide to do further testing, what website (company) is the most reliable for my case? I’ve seen there are many. Many thanks again.

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     Agamemnon (02-01-2016)

  14. #28
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    According to FTDNA, my haplogroup is now j-z18186, there's only one possible subclade, L1259 which should be the Graham/Jordan project. No SNP testing is recommended, L1259 testing is marked as "available" but this should be a British cluster and I'm Italian. Any date for this haplogroup? Definitely Arabic? Possible Jewish? Is STR testing worth, knowing that there's no Brega surname project? What kind of further testing? Thanks in advance.

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     Agamemnon (02-01-2016)

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    According to FTDNA, my haplogroup is now j-z18186, there's only one possible subclade, L1259 which should be the Graham/Jordan project. No SNP testing is recommended, L1259 testing is marked as "available" but this should be a British cluster and I'm Italian. Any date for this haplogroup? Definitely Arabic? Possible Jewish? Is STR testing worth, knowing that there's no Brega surname project? What kind of further testing? Thanks in advance.
    I assume that by L1259, you actually mean L1253 (which, indeed, is the Graham/Jordan marker). Z18186 (AKA BY89) is a subclade of YSC76 and its TMRCA is ~3000 years old. Considering the fact that most of the non-Graham/Jordan folks appear to have reliable tribal Arabian backgrounds (some claim to be Qahtanites, for example), I'd be pretty surprised if your paternal ancestors weren't Arabian (at least that looks like the most parsimonious explanation at this point).
    As to the test itself, while I'm not a big supporter of STR testing in general, I'd say it could be warranted in this case, however a Big Y test would be far better.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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     patrizio22 (02-01-2016)

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I assume that by L1259, you actually mean L1253 (which, indeed, is the Graham/Jordan marker). Z18186 (AKA BY89) is a subclade of YSC76 and its TMRCA is ~3000 years old. Considering the fact that most of the non-Graham/Jordan folks appear to have reliable tribal Arabian backgrounds (some claim to be Qahtanites, for example), I'd be pretty surprised if your paternal ancestors weren't Arabian (at least that looks like the most parsimonious explanation at this point).
    As to the test itself, while I'm not a big supporter of STR testing in general, I'd say it could be warranted in this case, however a Big Y test would be far better.
    Jordan

    Some of these Graham and Jordan may be J1 Sarmatians actually and seem to be close to some Balochs.

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