Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38

Thread: I found a clan Etruscan? I think that this is likely

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Sex
    Location
    Bologna, Italia
    Nationality
    Italiana
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L2+ZZ48+PF7600+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e2

    Italy

    I found a clan Etruscan? I think that this is likely

    Some time ago, analyzing the Study of Partecipanza of San Giovanni in Persiceto (Bologna), I realized that there was an abnormal concentration of samples R1b-U152 (not specified if L2+, Z36+, Z56+, etc.) having DYS385II=17. I refer to an abnormal concentration in the sense that this mutation is rare (almost absent) in the Project R1b. At that time I was too busy to look for samples close to me and so I decided not to pursue this coincidence.
    Lately I have realized that, at the moment, the research related to my group is probably a waste of time and so I decided to investigate the coincidence concerning San Giovanni in Persiceto, a place I know very well.

    The step n 1 was to verify whether this coincidence was also present in other studies. The result was this:
    1) This abnormal concentration is present also in the Studio of Professor Ferri, namely the study that analyzed the Province of Modena (in the border with San Giovanni in Persiceto). I remember that in this study are shown only samples generic R1b;

    2) This abnormal concentration is present also in the work of 2013 in which were analyzed many italian samples and, as regards to the group R1b, only concerns samples R1b-U152 (xL2); namely n 7 samples. But what is most interesting is the location of these samples: they are all concentrated in Toscana, except n 1 located in Sardegna (actually it was discovered that the relationship between the two areas was very intense in Etruscan period) and n 1 in Veneto;

    I was very intrigued by these coincidences, and then I wanted to analyze the data of the Project R1b-U152 (step n 2). I found this:

    A) The only group that contains the rare mutation DYS385II=17 with a good frequency is the Group Z56+. The mutation is present in only 2 other cases, where it looks like a random event;

    B ) In Group Z56+ the rare mutation concerns a very large number of samples, of which a good part is Italian and all these samples from Etruscan locations or location of Etruscan colonization (except for a sample coming from the Alps);

    C) Analyzing the data of the Project R1b-U152, it seems to me that the subgroup that could represent this rare mutation is: U152> Z56, Z42, Z43> 22087296> Z71 et al.> CTS6389 et al.;


    Step n 3 was to verify if there were other details concerning this subgroup (U152> Z56, Z42, Z43> 22087296> Z71 et al.> CTS6389 et al.). As usual I have served the admirable work of Richard Rocca (its Excel spreadsheet) and I found this:

    a) 4 Italian samples very interesting belong to this subgroup;

    b) 2 of these 4 samples are from Toscana-Etruria (Sesto Fiorentino, 1000 Genomes);

    c) the other two from Sardegna (Studio Francalacci), an area commercially and culturally connected to the Etruscans (I do not provide the data for not bore you);


    In the light of the facts that I have written, I think is very likely that:

    I) The rare mutation DYS385II=17 identifies a Etruscan clan between the Bronze Age and Iron Age in the historical Etruria;

    II) Some elements of this clan were part of those Etruscans who crossed the Appennini and were based in Bologna, they have begun to colonize and occupy the western areas (before the current province of Bologna, then Modena, Reggio Emilia and perhaps much more);

    III) Some of the not italian samples who own this rare mutation are the descendants of the people that, in the Roman imperial period, have settled out of Etruria (soldiers, traders, etc.);


    Obviously this is a hypothesis, which can be confirmed in the future when the samples e the data will be more numerous and complete. I will also accurate that dating seems to coincide. On this point, however, I will not bring arguments to avoid controversy that I do not love (unfortunately now, for the dating of the Group R1b-U152, I'm a heretic because I do not think that the dating of YFull is correct; maybe one day I'll change my mind).

    A final consideration. This forum was attended by a person who in my opinion belongs to the subgroup that I have described. It would be interesting if this person did the specific test to verify his belonging to the subgroup (if so, he might feel a real Etruscan )


    Greetings to all.
    Last edited by Acque agitate; 01-16-2016 at 02:09 PM.

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Acque agitate For This Useful Post:

     Bas (03-06-2016),  Bolgeris (01-16-2016),  Diana (01-25-2016),  dp (01-16-2016),  Grossvater (01-17-2016),  Isidro (01-23-2016),  MitchellSince1893 (01-16-2016),  R.Rocca (01-16-2016)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    128
    Sex
    Location
    Castelnuovo Magra (La Spezia, Italy)
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    L20 BY5690
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c4b

    Hi all, a friend of mine F. Bernardini has DYS385II=17 and he's U152+ Z56+ Z71+ Z72+ and he's waiting for the results of Big Y. His earliest known ancestor was from Sarzana- La Spezia- Italy- circa 1300 a.C.
    In Boattini's paper , in province of La Spezia, there are two U152+ with Dys 385II=17 and one U152+ with Dys385II=16
    Last edited by Titus Valerius; 01-23-2016 at 09:56 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Titus Valerius For This Useful Post:

     MitchellSince1893 (01-23-2016)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    128
    Sex
    Location
    Castelnuovo Magra (La Spezia, Italy)
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    L20 BY5690
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c4b

    Hi, in addition there is another friend of mine, L. Basteri from the same area who is U152+ Z56+ Z71+ Z72-, but he has DYS385II=11-14. So I think everyone who has Dys385a,b=12-17 or 11-16 are Z72+

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    134
    Sex
    Location
    Bologna, Italia
    Nationality
    Italiana
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L2+ZZ48+PF7600+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e2

    Italy
    I am glad that sample Bernardini will test Bigy. I await with great curiosity the result.
    It would be interesting if sample Guido Panara did the test.

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    35
    Sex
    Location
    Rome
    Ethnicity
    European 70% Mid East 29%
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>Z56>Z145>PF6577
    mtDNA (M)
    U1a1

    Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Valerius View Post
    Hi all, a friend of mine F. Bernardini has DYS385II=17 and he's U152+ Z56+ Z71+ Z72+ and he's waiting for the results of Big Y. His earliest known ancestor was from Sarzana- La Spezia- Italy- circa 1300 a.C.
    In Boattini's paper , in province of La Spezia, there are two U152+ with Dys 385II=17 and one U152+ with Dys385II=16
    His earliest known ancestor was from Sarzana- La Spezia- Italy- circa 1300 a.C. ???

    1300 a.C. ? how can he say this ? has he investigated archives succefully ? It is really rare in Italy to go with papers before Council of Trento about the second half 1500. It is possible to go before that date but only for notable and rich family using the notary documents and in this last case there is always a certain inaccuracy in the research. I don't trust any assertion of date before 1600 for normal family and consider that for normal people surname in many case disappear before the first half of 1600 also for the church records.
    Last edited by abds; 01-24-2016 at 04:29 PM.

  8. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    128
    Sex
    Location
    Castelnuovo Magra (La Spezia, Italy)
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    L20 BY5690
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c4b

    Hi all. We used the notary documents and the "Codice Pelavicino"

  9. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    128
    Sex
    Location
    Castelnuovo Magra (La Spezia, Italy)
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    L20 BY5690
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c4b

    Hi, in Sarzana during 1700 several family trees were made using notary documents. In addition there are: the Registrum Novum, the Codice Pelavicino and many other ancient documents rich of names! We were lucky!

  10. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    ~ Dad=U152, Z146 ~
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a2

    Italy Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Acque agitate View Post
    I am glad that sample Bernardini will test Bigy. I await with great curiosity the result.
    It would be interesting if sample Guido Panara did the test.
    Hello, which test are you speaking? This is my paternal line.
    R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.

  11. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    ~ Dad=U152, Z146 ~
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a2

    Italy Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Acque agitate View Post
    I am glad that sample Bernardini will test Bigy. I await with great curiosity the result.
    It would be interesting if sample Guido Panara did the test.
    IMG_1808.jpg
    This is my father, Guido Panara.. :-)
    R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Diana For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-03-2016),  psaglav (03-06-2016)

  13. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    128
    Sex
    Location
    Castelnuovo Magra (La Spezia, Italy)
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA (P)
    L20 BY5690
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c4b

    Hi Diana! F. Bernardini is waiting for the results of Big Y! He has DYS385b=17 like your father! F. Bernardini is Z71+ and Z72+ I think your father is Z72+ too. Another friend of mine L. Basteri from the same area has 385b=14 and he's Z71+ but Z72-

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Titus Valerius For This Useful Post:

     Diana (01-25-2016)

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Etruscan Origin of the Rutuli and Ardea
    By jmarca in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-02-2019, 09:49 AM
  2. Shackle Bound Skeleton Found In Etruscan Burial
    By MfA in forum History (Ancient)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-11-2016, 12:51 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-11-2016, 07:57 AM
  4. New Etruscan Text Found
    By Wonder_Wall in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-30-2016, 01:41 AM
  5. Discovery of an intact tomb of an Etruscan prince
    By Alessio B. Bedini in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-20-2013, 12:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •