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Thread: Bell Beaker and Early Celtic in the Isles

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    Bell Beaker and Early Celtic in the Isles

    I came across the following quote from an article by Alexander Falileyev in the book, The Bell Beaker Transition in Europe. I thought it would make a good introduction to a thread here in the Celtic subforum on the relationship of the Bell Beaker culture and early Celtic in the Isles.

    From Professor Patrice Brun (2006), L'origine des Celtes. Communautés linguistiques et reséaux sociaux. In D. Vitali (ed.), Celtes et Gaulois, l'Archéologie face à l'Histoire. 2 La Préhistoire des Celtes, 29-44, Bibracte, Glux-en-Glenne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrice Brun
    Since there is no evidence that the regions of Western Europe where Celtic languages are still spoken today became Celtic after 1600 BC, they must have become so at an earlier date. Before 1600 BC, the only time when the zones which gave rise to the north-Alpine and Atlantic complexes shared similar material and structural characteristics was the second half of the 3rd millennium BC. This was the well known Bell Beaker "package". Linking all the regions where a Celtic language was later to be spoken, this community represents a unique situation. (Quoted in Falileyev, Alexander (2015), Introduction. A Folk Who Will Never Speak: Bell Beakers and Linguistics. In The Bell Beaker Transition in Europe, Prieto Martinez and Salanova, editors, p. 3).
    One thing I have learned from Falileyev's article and from observation over a number of years is that there is little about which linguists agree.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-18-2016 at 12:19 AM.

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    Here is what I regard as a pretty good diagram from the same article. I interpret it as basically a graphic of Europe with Bell Beaker around the fringes of the Corded Ware territory and giving rise to the Italo-Celtic subfamily of Indo-European.

    bell beaker a. gallay 2001.png

    The inclusion of Remedello is probably an error, since the recent ancient dna results from that culture lacked the steppic autosomal component and the y-dna was solidly I2a. The rest of the graphic is pretty accurate, IMHO.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-17-2016 at 08:51 PM.

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    From David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel And Language, page 367:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Anthony
    The many thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in eastern Hungary suggest a more continuous occupation of the landscape by a larger population of immigrants, one that could have acquired power and prestige partly just through its numerical weight. This regional group could have spawned both pre-Italic and pre-Celtic. Bell Beaker sites of the Csepel type around Budapest, west of the Yamnaya settlement region, are dated about 2800-2600 BCE. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed into Proto-Celtic. Pre-Italic could have developed among the dialects that remained in Hungary, ultimately spreading into Italy through the Urnfield and Villanovan cultures. Eric Hamp and others have revived the argument that Italic and Celtic shared a common parent, so a single migration stream could have contained dialects that later were ancestral to both.
    If Marija Gimbutas was right, and Bell Beaker is an offshoot of Yamnaya, that would explain a lot, including the Yamnaya-like autosomal component and the y-dna R1b in Bell Beaker test results thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions. [From The Civilization of the Goddess, p. 390]
    Last edited by rms2; 02-07-2016 at 06:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    From David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel And Language, page 367:



    If Marija Gimbutas was right, and Bell Beaker is an offshoot of Yamnaya, that would explain a lot, including the Yamnaya-like autosomal component and the y-dna R1b in Bell Beaker test results thus far.
    Today what we see with the DNA confirms their Theory.
    Gimbutas was really ahead of her time

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    Here is the table of Bell Beaker y-dna results I am keeping. This is just my own humble opinion and not an attempt to be absolute, dogmatic, or to offend anyone, but I think it likely that all of the Beaker men represented in this table were P312+ of some kind. It's just that for some of them, the coverage wasn't good enough to get a result for P312 or its subclades.

    bell beaker y haplogroup table 24 dec 2015.png bell beaker y haplogroup table page 2.png

    Here is a graphic from the Mathiesen et al paper that shows the Yamnaya-like autosomal component in its Bell Beaker results.

    bell beaker portion of mathieson et al bar graph.jpg
    Last edited by rms2; 02-07-2016 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here is the table of Bell Beaker y-dna results I am keeping.
    Thanks for the credit on the table. I see that you have added your own useful notes though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Thanks for the credit on the table. I see that you have added your own useful notes though.
    Well, it's pretty obvious I used your site as my main source. It would have been pretty low down to publicly post that table without citing my source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, it's pretty obvious I used your site as my main source. It would have been pretty low down to publicly post that table without citing my source.
    I just thought I should mention that some of it is not from my table, as you had not said so. Something like "adapted from" XXX would do fine.
    Last edited by Jean M; 02-09-2016 at 08:28 AM.

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    Well, Jean, it does say "Source", not " quoted verbatim from".

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, Jean, it does say "Source", not " quoted verbatim from".
    I don't know. I have to struggle to get you to take credit for your own work.

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