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Thread: R1b-M269>PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563-, L23-

  1. #1
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    Lazistan Byzantine Empire Great Seljuk Empire Ottoman Empire 2 Flanders

    R1b-M269>PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563-, L23-

    So far I'm the only one who belongs to this subclade of M269.

    Any idea where did it come from and the split with L23 has happened? I first thought Khvalynsk culture may have something to do with it but thats not possible since the R1b that was found is M269-. I have read on several forums that most basal clade of R1b-M269 is found in Sardinia and Iran. Unfortunately i couldn't find details about them. Only thing i'm sure is that this clade is pre-Yamna Culture and is now almost a death lineage. what could be the reason for this? Elite theory perhaps?

    I have checked many projects on FTDNA, especially the Armenian and the Armenian sponsored Hemshin project is very interesting because their ancestral homeland is not far away from where my y-dna is from (Eastern Trabzon) and they have tested many individuals from the region. Still I don't have any match on str or snp level.

    A mysterious person told me that my clade came with Subars from Upper Mesopotamia. He told me there are today 'Kurdish' speaking people with the same subclade as i have. He didn't provide further information. I did some research but wasn't able to find those people (i couldn't find much information about the Subars either). There are R1b's from Dersim but they are mostly L23+ and most of them speak Turkish. Btw, this topic is not about the origin of Dersim people. What i'm trying to say is the r1b's I found among Kurds or Kurd related people don't back up his claims.

    Your input is more than welcome!
    Terminal SNPs: FGC31931/V2381 PF6576 PF7562 PH1631/V2850

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  3. #2
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    According to Anatole Klyosov

    Map of R1b haplotype locations addressed in this study, until they arrived to Iberia ~4800 ybp.

    The overall migration path of the Arbins had apparently started in South Siberia, where present day R1b haplotypes of the Shors, Teleuts, Altaians, Uigurs, Khakasses, Tuva people (the right-hand side pins) are tremendously different from those in the Europe and Middle East. The migration route continued through the regions in Middle Asia and Russia, where presently live Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Mari, Tatars, and Kalmyks. From the Central Russia's region the Arbins moved to the Caucasus and further South to Anatolia, Middle East, present day Iraq, Lebanon, and then westward along the Mediterranean Sea onto Northern Africa to the Atlantic. On that way R1b-V88 bearers split and went deep into Africa, where their descendants currently live in Cameroon and Chad (Cruciani et al., 2010). Their migratory path into Africa is reproduced here from the above reference. The map shows R1b locations previous to arrival to the Pyrenees ~4800 ybp, from where they moved North as Bell Beakers and populated Europe between 4800 - 3000 ybp and later.



    The legend to Figure 10 describes those Central Asian/Siberian populations. There are many Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Eneolithic archaeological cultures in the area, such as Tersek, Ural, Surtandi, Mahandzhar, Iman-Burluk, Botai, Atbasar, Kelteminar, and other archaeological Central Asian cultures in present-day Russia (e.g, Zakharov, 2010), which might be assigned to the Arbins; however, it would be premature to assign any of them to R1b or to any other haplogroup. Such a task is quite new for archaeologists. It is tempting to point at Seroglazovo, Khvalyn, Samara, Middle-Volga and adjacent archaeological cultures of 12,000 - 5000 ybp of the European east as the most likely R1b cultures. We cannot, however do it for the same reason of prematurity, and it would be irresponsible to suggest such at this time. The same may be said for Timber Grave, Catacomb and neighboring archaeological cultures of Central and South Russia, which apparently were shared by both R1b and R1a bearers, albeit at different time periods. The R1b people before 5000 ybp, and R1a people after 4500 ybp have confused archaeologists who have observed “different roots” of those cultures, spreading in different directions and at different times.
    Here we encounter an interesting thesis, that the people who separated 10,000 years before, could reunite in a single archeological culture like they parted within a life of one generation. In purely generational terms, 10,000 years constitutes 400 generations for either prong of the fork. That's 400 generations separated uncounted, and differing, technological innovations, genetical and linguistic admixtures, social developments, religious developments, etiological developments, ethnological developments, and who knows what else. And then the refugees from the European genocide and the nomadic old timers from the Asia, with whatever genetical markers in their Y-DNA chromosome, encounter each other on the fringes of the Eastern Europe, and for 500 years become indistinguishable from each other. A single culture, single technology. single society, single art, ceramics, religion, etiology, ethnology, and everything else. Like there was no Babylon Tower that separated people into warring fractions, like a return of the Edem to the Earth. And 500 years later, comes another miracle, a magic separation of indistinguishable single people into two contrasting and opposing multitudes, one clearly a continuation of the previous single nomadic animal husbandry archeological civilization, and the other purely agricultural, with a language of incompatible family, and clearly unrelated to the previous single nomadic animal husbandry archeological civilization.

    Genetically-wise, it is premature to tell who is who, such a task is quite new for archaeologists. Otherwise, and including biologically, it is perfectly clear who is who, and no amount of modern mislabeling can change the past situation in or on the ground.

    The map shows that the current bearers of R1b spread over Central Russia up to Arkhangelsk on the White Sea. Very likely it was a relatively recent relocation, although it remains to be determined. Currently there are only about 5% of the R1b bearers in the European part of Russia.

    As was described above in this study, the Arbins went South through the Caucasus to the Mesopotamia and Middle East around 6000 - 5000 ybp; they established the Sumer civilization; went westward via Egypt to the Atlantic, and across the Gibraltar Strait to the Pyrenees. On their way, some R1b-V88 bearers split; they went deep into Africa, and currently populate Cameroon and Chad in appreciable amounts (see legend to Figure 10 and description and references above). By 4800 ybp the Arbins have reached Iberia to become the first Bell Beakers. This date was obtained for a common ancestor of haplotypes of P312 and U106 subclades (see the next Section), and is supported by archaeology data (Cardoso & Soares, 1990; Martinez et al., 1996; Cardoso, 2001; Muller & Willigen, 2001; Nocete, 2006).

    Several Entry Routes of R1b1a2 Haplotypes to Europe: from the East European Plain, from Asia Minor/Middle East, from the Pyrenees

    To sum up the preceding section, the Arbins were entering Europe from the east by several routes: from the East European Plain (between the Pontic Steppes and the Baltic Sea); from Asia Minor and the Middle East; and after a long way around Mediterranean Sea to Iberia, up north to the European continent. The first two principal routes were associated with bearers of the R-L23 subclade. The Iberian route was made by mainly M269 people, who at the time of entry the Pyrenees spun off the R-L51, and immediately later the R-L11. Both are very similar and have very close timespans to their common ancestors, as is shown in the next section. In 4850 ybp L11 promptly spun off two “brother” subclades, P312 and U106 (Klyosov, 2011b), which after a long “population bottleneck”, on the edge of extinction, eventually survived and expanded around 4000 - 3700 ybp, and actively populated Europe, first as Bell Beakers, between 4000 and 3000 ybp, and then toward the era of the Ancient Rome, as Gauls and Celts, to mention only the names with certain historical “milestones” present. In fact, in Europe lived dozens if not hundreds of the ancient R1b tribes.


    Not exactly an answer to my question but thought it's worth sharing this.
    Last edited by icebreaker; 01-22-2016 at 04:02 AM.
    Terminal SNPs: FGC31931/V2381 PF6576 PF7562 PH1631/V2850

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    Quote Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
    So far I'm the only one who belongs to this subclade of M269.

    Any idea where did it come from and the split with L23 has happened? I first thought Khvalynsk culture may have something to do with it but thats not possible since the R1b that was found is M269-. I have read on several forums that most basal clade of R1b-M269 is found in Sardinia and Iran. Unfortunately i couldn't find details about them. Only thing i'm sure is that this clade is pre-Yamna Culture and is now almost a death lineage. what could be the reason for this? Elite theory perhaps?

    I have checked many projects on FTDNA, especially the Armenian and the Armenian sponsored Hemshin project is very interesting because their ancestral homeland is not far away from where my y-dna is from (Eastern Trabzon) and they have tested many individuals from the region. Still I don't have any match on str or snp level.

    A mysterious person told me that my clade came with Subars from Upper Mesopotamia. He told me there are today 'Kurdish' speaking people with the same subclade as i have. He didn't provide further information. I did some research but wasn't able to find those people (i couldn't find much information about the Subars either). There are R1b's from Dersim but they are mostly L23+ and most of them speak Turkish. Btw, this topic is not about the origin of Dersim people. What i'm trying to say is the r1b's I found among Kurds or Kurd related people don't back up his claims.

    Your input is more than welcome!
    Many L23 albanian exemples are found.
    I am R1b-PF7563
    Shkoder Albania as many other people from the clan Shala. They used to live near the lake of Shkodra and after ottomans invaded Albania they took refuge in mountains and everywhere. Many of these descenders beside Albania live today in Kosovo, Turkey etc.
    Some examples you find here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

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    I finally have a match R1b-PF7562>FGC31923*.

    He's Irish American. I hope he orders big-y test.
    Terminal SNPs: FGC31931/V2381 PF6576 PF7562 PH1631/V2850

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