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Thread: Genetics of Silesians and Wielkopolans

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    Question Genetics of Silesians and Wielkopolans

    There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.

    On Silesians I have found the following studies (none of which deal with things such as haplogroup frequencies):

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669549

    http://www.forensicscience.pl/pfs/45_raczek.pdf

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/2_2007/2_07t.pdf

    https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmet...9-6e0ba90a21fb

    http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medli...tion/20860300/

    Are there any other genetic studies on them?

    On Wielkopolans I have found the following studies (the study from the first link deals with Y-DNA haplogroups):

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=267630

    http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...249-4/fulltext

    https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmet...2-bb40d3ccaebf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

    http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/expert...owacka+Monica+

    Are there any other genetic studies on them?

    =============================

    This study deals with Y-DNA in Wielkopolska region:

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    However, a lot of samples were just described as "K-M9" (?!). K-M9 samples from this study in Table II.:

    Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-26-2016 at 04:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.
    Some of the R1b-EE in Silesia >R1b>R-5587TMRCA 4300+ ybp+>BY593+TMRCA 1550ybp > R-Y14306+TMRCA 1300 ybp As you can see on map, possible cluster extends East.-466 C.E.+/-
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
    R-Y5587-Y5587formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybpinfo
    R-V2986-Y11816 * Y11817 * PH1723/BY593/V2986+19 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybpinfo
    R-Y14306-Y14306formed 1550 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo
    possible y-14306.jpg

    brother branch R1b-Y5586+R-Y5586Y5586 * Y5588formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybpinfo found in Ossetians.
    R1b-5586.jpg.
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-26-2016 at 11:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.

    On Silesians I have found the following studies (none of which deal with things such as haplogroup frequencies):

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669549

    http://www.forensicscience.pl/pfs/45_raczek.pdf

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/2_2007/2_07t.pdf

    https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmet...9-6e0ba90a21fb

    http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medli...tion/20860300/

    Are there any other genetic studies on them?

    On Wielkopolans I have found the following studies (the study from the first link deals with Y-DNA haplogroups):

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=267630

    http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...249-4/fulltext

    https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmet...2-bb40d3ccaebf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

    http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/expert...owacka+Monica+

    Are there any other genetic studies on them?

    =============================

    This study deals with Y-DNA in Wielkopolska region:

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    However, a lot of samples were just described as "K-M9" (?!). K-M9 samples from this study in Table II.:

    Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

    using the predictor the first came out as

    N1c @99.48 and then next one as
    I2a1b3 @99.89

    some they will different


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    There is none, I'm afraid. Pretty bad, because Silesia is a really interesting region for testing - provided that you test autochtonous population.

    I can search for Silesian R1a haplotypes that we have in R1a Project.



    By the way - study of Wielkopolans has the worst set of Y-SNPs I've ever seen, considering that its from the year of 2013 and not from 1999.
    Unstable backmutation SRY1532.2 defining R1a, M46 (one of the defining mutations of N1c-Tat) that apparently didn't work, 2 mutations defining IJ included (like it was too hard to test M253 and, let's say, P37.2 ).

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    Yes, I'm not aware of any recent, in depth studies of Poland, Slovakia, or Czech lands. All I recall are a few STR-based studies from early 2000s (Eg Tambets 2004, Semino 2000). Pretty surprising these countries haven't put out anything more recently/ more resolved

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    I've managed to gather some data on R1a found in Silesian testees. Most of the data is from R1a Project and Polish Project, rest is from Germany-YDNA.
    I decided not to include samples that don't have known kit number. N=41

    SCHNEIDER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254, Wilamowice, #53667
    TOMASZEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Żywiec, #N18946
    STANIEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*, Ochaby,#N116699
    BULAWA, 282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343*, Krzyżowa, #N38418
    LASSEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380(?) , Warszowice, #295227
    PATALONG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?)Mysłowice, #188725
    SOBALLA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2 902, Katowice, #N17626
    ROSTEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Katowice, #349840
    BENTKOWSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Chorzów, #178329
    SZKOWRON, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Mikołów, #439329
    GRZESIK,Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Budziska, #N33335
    ROLKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Międzyrzecze, #363910
    KOCUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Niewiesze, #163780
    SCHEMBOR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Lubliniec, #164946
    FREYER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Stare Karmonki, #E1842
    SALZMANN, Z282>Z280>Z92, Głubczyce, #192545
    LEX, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Głubczyce, #373829
    BERNATEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1 364, Głubczyce, #260299
    SCHARON, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934*, Krapkowice, #232033
    GONDRO, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Raszowa, #E11879
    STRZODA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337, Rostkowice, #288504
    SAKRY, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Komprachcice, #N13715
    MAXELON, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Błotnica Strzelecka , #249444
    KLEEMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Opole, #E5412
    HANNAK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414>YP6 10, Niemodlin, #154913
    CHECHELSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414, Brzęczkowice, #376660
    PACH, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Laskowice, #N3865
    SZCZEPANEK, M417+ predicted (short haplotype, maybe Z280) , Stronie Śląskie, #156577
    KRUSZKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Srebrna Góra, #114248
    SCHOBER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Wałbrzych, #102574
    DINTER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Wałbrzych, #172283
    LASSOTA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Oleśnica, #124617
    MASUR, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, Wrocław, #E8695
    PFEILER, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235(?), Wrocław, #161130
    JUNG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921 , Wrocław, #97621
    MIRKE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Świniary (now Wrocław), #338484
    BAUM, Z93 (Z94-), Rościsławice, #E7096
    SCHWABE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Milicz, #271280
    NN, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Czerwonda Woda, #E4579
    SCHULZE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254(?), Kałki, #N111740
    HAMANN, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335*, Legnica, #210950

    Out of which:
    - 21 (51% of whole R1a!) people belong to M458>L260 branch
    - 5 (12%) people belong to M458>L1029 branch
    - 5 (12%) people belong to Z280>CTS1211>YP343 branch
    - 7 (17%) people belong to other Z280 branches (likely under CTS3402 for the most of them)
    - 2 (4,9%) people belong to Z93 branch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmar View Post
    I've managed to gather some data on R1a found in Silesian testees. Most of the data is from R1a Project and Polish Project, rest is from Germany-YDNA.
    I decided not to include samples that don't have known kit number. N=41

    SCHNEIDER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254, Wilamowice, #53667
    TOMASZEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Żywiec, #N18946
    STANIEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*, Ochaby,#N116699
    BULAWA, 282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343*, Krzyżowa, #N38418
    LASSEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380(?) , Warszowice, #295227
    PATALONG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?)Mysłowice, #188725
    SOBALLA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2 902, Katowice, #N17626
    ROSTEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Katowice, #349840
    BENTKOWSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Chorzów, #178329
    SZKOWRON, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Mikołów, #439329
    GRZESIK,Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Budziska, #N33335
    ROLKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Międzyrzecze, #363910
    KOCUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Niewiesze, #163780
    SCHEMBOR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Lubliniec, #164946
    FREYER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Stare Karmonki, #E1842
    SALZMANN, Z282>Z280>Z92, Głubczyce, #192545
    LEX, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Głubczyce, #373829
    BERNATEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1 364, Głubczyce, #260299
    SCHARON, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934*, Krapkowice, #232033
    GONDRO, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Raszowa, #E11879
    STRZODA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337, Rostkowice, #288504
    SAKRY, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Komprachcice, #N13715
    MAXELON, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Błotnica Strzelecka , #249444
    KLEEMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Opole, #E5412
    HANNAK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414>YP6 10, Niemodlin, #154913
    CHECHELSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414, Brzęczkowice, #376660
    PACH, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Laskowice, #N3865
    SZCZEPANEK, M417+ predicted (short haplotype, maybe Z280) , Stronie Śląskie, #156577
    KRUSZKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Srebrna Góra, #114248
    SCHOBER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Wałbrzych, #102574
    DINTER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Wałbrzych, #172283
    LASSOTA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Oleśnica, #124617
    MASUR, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, Wrocław, #E8695
    PFEILER, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235(?), Wrocław, #161130
    JUNG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921 , Wrocław, #97621
    MIRKE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Świniary (now Wrocław), #338484
    BAUM, Z93 (Z94-), Rościsławice, #E7096
    SCHWABE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Milicz, #271280
    NN, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Czerwonda Woda, #E4579
    SCHULZE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254(?), Kałki, #N111740
    HAMANN, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335*, Legnica, #210950

    Out of which:
    - 21 (51% of whole R1a!) people belong to M458>L260 branch
    - 5 (12%) people belong to M458>L1029 branch
    - 5 (12%) people belong to Z280>CTS1211>YP343 branch
    - 7 (17%) people belong to other Z280 branches (likely under CTS3402 for the most of them)
    - 2 (4,9%) people belong to Z93 branch
    This is evidence there's lots of R1a-mega lineages in East Europe. This is obviously because R1a-M417 expanded with mega-lineages. We shouldn't be surprised German Corded Ware R1a is R1a-M417* instead of being apart of modern R1a-mega lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    This is evidence there's lots of R1a-mega lineages in East Europe. This is obviously because R1a-M417 expanded with mega-lineages. We shouldn't be surprised German Corded Ware R1a is R1a-M417* instead of being apart of modern R1a-mega lineages.
    Can you clarify what you mean ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Can you clarify what you mean ?
    R1a in East Europe isn't diverse, most belong to a handful of subclades. We see the same pattern in all R1a-M417. In Scandinavia 90%+ of R1a is R1a Z282>Z284 and R1a M417>L664. In Timber Grace/Sintashta/Andronovo ~100%(One is Euro-Z282) of R1a so far is R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124. Most R1a in South-Central Asia is R1a Z93>Z94>L657.

    It looks like R1a-M417 it expanded with "mega-lineages" everywhere it went. German Corded Ware R1a-M417* is a snap-shot/fossil of R1a-M417 lineages that didn't become mega-lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    R1a in East Europe isn't diverse, most belong to a handful of subclades. We see the same pattern in all R1a-M417. In Scandinavia 90%+ of R1a is R1a Z282>Z284 and R1a M417>L664. In Timber Grace/Sintashta/Andronovo ~100%(One is Euro-Z282) of R1a so far is R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124. Most R1a in South-Central Asia is R1a Z93>Z94>L657.
    Yes I understand that part. European R1a is M417, and specifically 90% Z282, plus some L664, and 'older' forms.

    It looks like R1a-M417 it expanded with "mega-lineages" everywhere it went. German Corded Ware R1a-M417* is a snap-shot/fossil of R1a-M417 lineages that didn't become mega-lineages.
    Well, most modern lineages which are frequent are "mega-lineages". That's just the way Y DNA works. There are j2 mega-lineages, and I2 mega-lineage, and E-V13 mega-lineage. Perhaps we should use more scientific terminology instead of "mega-lineages".

    Specific extant M417 which expanded rapidly are those like L1029 above, and they expaded rather recently. This was over and above M417, which itself was a relatively recent expansion. That's what you're seeing.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 01-29-2016 at 04:08 AM.

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