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Thread: C2b1a1b-F3985, is it "Old European" just like C1a2-V20 ???

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    Question C2b1a1b-F3985, is it "Old European" just like C1a2-V20 ???

    "C Haplogroup Y-DNA" Project on Family Tree DNA includes the following samples from Europe (broken down by regions):

    C1a2 (as we know, this is "Old European" subclade) - in total 15 samples:

    C1a2-V20:

    Ireland - 2
    Upper Lusatia (Leipzig) - 1

    C1a2a-V222:

    Scotland - 1
    Ireland - 1
    England - 1
    Calabria - 1
    Subcarpathia (Komarnyky, near Lviv) - 1
    Ithaca Island - 1
    Hungary - 1
    Ulster - 2

    C1a2a2-Z29329:

    Subcarpathia (Stare Miasto, near Rzeszów) - 1
    Valencian Country (Soneja) - 1
    Aragon - 1

    ==============================

    But they have also other subclades, which have not yet been found in ancient DNA.

    In particular C2b1a1b looks like it could also be present in Europe for a long time (what do you think?):

    C2b1-F1699:

    Rhineland - 1
    Thuringia - 1
    Upper Spiš (Slovenská Ves) - 1

    C2b1a1b-F3985:

    Vorarlberg - 1
    Českobudějovická Pánev - 1
    Mazovia - 2

    ===========================

    As well as:

    C2e-Z1338 (East Asian?):

    Ireland - 1

    C2b1c-F4002 (Mongolian?):

    Russia (Sudzha, Kursk Oblast) - 1
    Ukraine (Poltava) - 1
    Bukovina (Rădăuţi) - 1

    ===========================

    And samples of C in case of which exact subclade has not yet been tested:

    Cornwall - 1
    Rhineland - 1
    Sicily - 1
    Campania - 1

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    Also in: "Y chromosome polymorphisms and haplotypes in South Saxony-Anhalt (Germany)":

    http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0...05)00021-6/pdf

    Authors found 1 sample (frequency 0.43%) of C among 234 Germans from Halle an der Saale.

    This sample is not included in the list from the Opening Post above.

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    What strikes me is that even of these few samples of C1a2 and C2b1a which have been identified in modern Europe, most are carried by people who live in (or whose earliest known paternal ancestors come from) either mountainous, surrounded by mountains (basins / valleys) or water from most sides (islands / peninsulas), as well as otherwise remote regions. I don't think that it is just a coincidence.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-26-2016 at 08:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    C2b1c-F4002 (Mongolian?)
    This is the so-called Genghis Khan cluster. YFull's C-Y4541 is the alleged Genghis Khan progeny, with a TMRCA of 850 ybp. YFull places F4002 itself one level higher, with a TMRCA of 2600 ybp.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 01-26-2016 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    C2b1a1b-F3985
    According to ISOGG, the sibling of C2b1a1b-F3985 is C2b1a1a-P39, the Native American clade, so one might suspect that the two diverged in Central Asia. Unfortunately, not a single C-P39 has submitted his BAM file to YFull.

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    F3895 shares many SNPs with a Manchu (from Shi Yan) and an Altai-Kizhi (from Karmin). Also related are Native American and Koryak lineages. How old the divergence is I couldn't say, but most likely post-LGM, and it could easily be very recent (Turko-Mongolic).

    It's difficult to be sure that rare branches are specifically European because there simply isn't comparable data from the potential source populations in most cases.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 01-26-2016 at 10:54 PM.

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    Regarding C-P39, that could change soon. When I can afford it, I may submit my full Big-Y BAM file to YFull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka
    If you already have a C-P39 BAM file...
    I got your PM, but I can't PM you back because I don't have 10 posts yet.

    Anyway, interesting that payment isn't due until analysis is complete. Surprising that no one has uploaded this particular subclade yet. What would be your interest in the C-P39 group? Are you a researcher? I'll try to get it uploaded as soon as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apachewolf View Post
    Surprising that no one has uploaded this particular subclade yet. What would be your interest in the C-P39 group? Are you a researcher? I'll try to get it uploaded as soon as possible.
    Yes, please submit to YFull as soon as possible. I am very interested to know how long ago Native American C-P39 diverged from Siberian-European C-F1756.

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    I has been submitted to YFull.

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