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Thread: R1b - S21 Distribution map. (Cymru DNA)

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    R1b - S21 Distribution map. (Cymru DNA)

    Any thoughts please on this map which is said " to represent lineages a hundred years ago or more".
    I was particularly curious about the relatively high percentage from the West of Scotland, where I would guess there was little Saxon influence. I don't know how this compares with other distribution maps.

    download (1) R1b S21 Distribution..jpg

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    The high figure for north and west Scotland may be related to Norse settlements in the area during the Viking period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Any thoughts please on this map which is said " to represent lineages a hundred years ago or more".
    I was particularly curious about the relatively high percentage from the West of Scotland, where I would guess there was little Saxon influence. I don't know how this compares with other distribution maps.

    download (1) R1b S21 Distribution..jpg
    makes perfect sense - very close correlation with the relative strength of Norse settlement in the various islands and mainland of NW Scotland

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Any thoughts please on this map which is said " to represent lineages a hundred years ago or more".
    I was particularly curious about the relatively high percentage from the West of Scotland, where I would guess there was little Saxon influence. I don't know how this compares with other distribution maps.

    download (1) R1b S21 Distribution..jpg
    makes perfect sense - very close correlation with the relative strength of Norse settlement in the various islands and mainland of NW Scotland. In fact the map is incredibly close to the two pronged Germanic input into Scotland with Norse in the extreme north-west and Angles in the south-east. The moderate amount all the way up the north-east of Scotland also correlates with the areas of Norman, north English and Flemish settlement in the post-1100AD period when knights were granted lands by the Scottish king and small burghs and fisher villages were set up along that area. Its an uncannily good fit for history. Even the old anthropologists drew very similar conclusions that in the west of Scotland the Norse input slowly decreased from north to south through the islands and mainland. The higher than perhaps expected U106 for Norse=Norwegian Vikings is easily explained by the endless possibilities for founder effects in a group island hopping from north to south.
    Last edited by alan; 01-30-2016 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    makes perfect sense - very close correlation with the relative strength of Norse settlement in the various islands and mainland of NW Scotland. In fact the map is incredibly close to the two pronged Germanic input into Scotland with Norse in the extreme north-west and Angles in the south-east. The moderate amount all the way up the north-east of Scotland also correlates with the areas of Norman, north English and Flemish settlement in the post-1100AD period when knights were granted lands by the Scottish king and small burghs and fisher villages were set up along that area. Its an uncannily good fit for history. Even the old anthropologists drew very similar conclusions that in the west of Scotland the Norse input slowly decreased from north to south through the islands and mainland. The higher than perhaps expected U106 for Norse=Norwegian Vikings is easily explained by the endless possibilities for founder effects in a group island hopping from north to south.
    Why is it not 18% in Leinster? Leinster had a two pronged input from the Norse and the English. Wales is a surprise at 14%.

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    Thanks for the observations. That was my first thought too, Norse influence.
    It does make you wonder whether there is also some Norse influence included in what we often regard as the A/S parts of England? I thought the figure for Wales was a bit high too. I don't know the extent to which this was affected by recent migration as even 100 years ago this could have had a significant affect. I would guess they have tried to avoid including samples which would have been affected by recent migration?
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 01-30-2016 at 10:31 AM.

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    With regards to Hebrides, BritansDNA posted following map in twitter back in 2014 on "Viking DNA" when it came to Y-DNA, I sent them a tweet looking for clarification of what haplogroups did they regard as "Norse"



    BritainsDNA ‏@Britains_DNA 30 May 2014
    @dubhthach Sorry for late reply, they're associated with norse ancestry: R1a-S200, R1a-S201, R1a-S223*, R1a-S443*, R1b-S182 and R1b-S375*
    Of course in Irish the name for the Hebrides is "Inse Ghall" (The Islands of the Foreigners -- in context of Viking period Gall was only used for the Norse)

    Obviously the outer Hebrides are a stronghold of Scottish Gaidhlig, was alot of historians talk about is that there is strong sign of Norse linguistic evidence (placenames etc.) with later "re-Gaelicisation" (of course it raises the question was Hebrides an area speaking "Old Irish" before arrival of Norse or perhaps Pictish?)

    The accent they have particulary in Harris shows clear signs of Scandinavian influence, as someone who can speak Irish I'm always scratching my head thinking their vowels sound like something out of a "Scandi-Noir" tv show -- most disconcerting
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    Quote Originally Posted by northkerry View Post
    Why is it not 18% in Leinster? Leinster had a two pronged input from the Norse and the English. Wales is a surprise at 14%.
    R1a-Z289 (equivalent to Z284) has a spike in NW Scotland as well, 13% in the Chromo2 map which is over three times high than the next highest area (Yorkshire @ 4%)

    The English would have arrived in Ireland with a lot of different haplogroups, including L21

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    Quote Originally Posted by northkerry View Post
    Why is it not 18% in Leinster? Leinster had a two pronged input from the Norse and the English. Wales is a surprise at 14%.
    Norse settlement in Leinster was mostly confined to what we term modern County Dublin, plus part of Wexford. The rest was mostly untouched. As for during the Norman's, alot of major "Norman" input into Leinster was from Wales (thence Cambro-Norman's) even than Leinster was mostly Irish speaking right up to the start of Tudor conquest in 16th century (if anything Irish had infiltrated the "Pale" as a general lingua Franca).

    That and our concept of Leinster is very different from historic one up to arrival of Norman's:

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    Quote Originally Posted by northkerry View Post
    Why is it not 18% in Leinster? Leinster had a two pronged input from the Norse and the English. Wales is a surprise at 14%.
    Considering the centuries of English encroachment and settlement in Wales, 14% U106 is not all that surprising. There was also a fair amount of Flemish input in SW Wales.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-30-2016 at 01:13 PM.
     


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