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Thread: R1b - S21 Distribution map. (Cymru DNA)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    What they said was, as mentioned in my original post that the map represents lineages from 100 years ago or more, or words to that effect, which suggests some sort of filtering process. They also produced a World distribution map/tool which they said was based on their own AND other research. They didn't say that specifically for the British map. They also said they were the first company to produce such a map? I didn't think I could share this, but it seems I can.

    Attachment 7549
    I assume this is a map for U106. Interesting that the percentage is about the same in Ireland as in Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    With Cymru DNA (same thing I think) they test anyone who comes forward. I looked into possible participation in the POBI project, but wasn't eligible because recent of population migration. Worth remembering I think that there are people with some Welsh origins the other side of the border. My own paternal line came from just over the Herefordshire border to the South Wales Valleys, I have a Welsh surname but am U106 just to confuse things and I wouldn't mind betting there are people with an "English" surname or names which have become anglicised, who have Welsh origins.
    There are always going to be exceptions but generally speaking someone with a welsh surname is going to have deep paternal ancestry in Wales whereas an English surname would denote an origin in England. Remember that the English fixed surnames much earlier than the Welsh and there are very early examples of English surnames in southern Pembrokeshire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    There are always going to be exceptions but generally speaking someone with a welsh surname is going to have deep paternal ancestry in Wales whereas an English surname would denote an origin in England. Remember that the English fixed surnames much earlier than the Welsh and there are very early examples of English surnames in southern Pembrokeshire.
    I was wondering whether because the Welsh fixed surnames later, that an "English" Christian name could have been more widely used before being adopted as a surname? I do agree they would be exceptions though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I assume this is a map for U106. Interesting that the percentage is about the same in Ireland as in Sweden.
    Yes, but the oldest known U106+ (RISE98) thus far comes from the Lilla Beddinge Nordic Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden and is dated ~2300 BC.

    Ireland, on the other hand, unlike Sweden, was subject to settlement in the historical period by peoples from homelands with much much higher frequencies of U106 than Ireland has and to control and domination by the English for centuries.

    So, evidently the U106 story in Sweden is radically different from the U106 story in Ireland. Similar frequencies, different stories.

    Nowadays the frequency of R1b-L23 on the Eurasian steppe is fairly low, yet most of us (I think) are pretty well convinced that is where our L23 ancestors came from before entering Europe west of the Dniester during the Copper/Bronze Age.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-31-2016 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I assume this is a map for U106. Interesting that the percentage is about the same in Ireland as in Sweden.
    With Danes showing up at 20% and Norwegians at 13% in that map I wonder if part of issue is to do with size of their swedish dataset. It's interesting that they have restricted it to purely "South Swedish".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    With Danes showing up at 20% and Norwegians at 13% in that map I wonder if part of issue is to do with size of their swedish dataset. It's interesting that they have restricted it to purely "South Swedish".
    I would assume that they only had data for South Sweden. It may be based on the Myres data for Malmø, where U106 was only 4.3% (6 out of 139) of the total. Incidentally P312 was nearly three times greater: 11.5% (16 out of 139). Malmø is just across the Øresund from Copenhagen and formerly part of Denmark, so one would expect U106 numbers to be more in line with those in Denmark, but they aren't.

    Compare this to the Myres' data for North Denmark (presumably northern Jutland), where U106 was almost 24%, and Norway, where U106 was over 20% (28 of 138). Additionally the data from the Old Norway Project suggests U106, as a percentage of R1b, declines as one proceeds northward in Sweden. Sweden is thought to have been the source of many of the Germanic tribes that later swept down into Europe, especially of the East Germanic tribes (Goths, arguably Burgundians, Lombards and even Swabians). Perhaps this merely indicates U106 was more common in the West Germanic tribes than in the East Germanic ones.

    All the data indicates the highest concentration in of U106 in Scandinavia occurs in northern Jutland. This is apparently the area of the greatest Beaker settlement in Scandinavia. It is also higher in Norway, which was also the site of Beaker settlements, yet lower in Sweden, which apparently the Beakers did not reach. Is this merely a coincidence? Perhaps so, perhaps not.

    I prefer to await further data before trying to neatly force things into a box in which they might not fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I would assume that they only had data for South Sweden. It may be based on the Myres data for Malmø, where U106 was only 4.3% (6 out of 139) of the total. Incidentally P312 was nearly three times greater: 11.5% (16 out of 139). Malmø is just across the Øresund from Copenhagen and formerly part of Denmark, so one would expect U106 numbers to be more in line with those in Denmark, but they aren't.

    Compare this to the Myres' data for North Denmark (presumably northern Jutland), where U106 was almost 24%, and Norway, where U106 was over 20% (28 of 138). Additionally the data from the Old Norway Project suggests U106, as a percentage of R1b, declines as one proceeds northward in Sweden. Sweden is thought to have been the source of many of the Germanic tribes that later swept down into Europe, especially of the East Germanic tribes (Goths, arguably Burgundians, Lombards and even Swabians). Perhaps this merely indicates U106 was more common in the West Germanic tribes than in the East Germanic ones.

    All the data indicates the highest concentration in of U106 in Scandinavia occurs in northern Jutland. This is apparently the area of the greatest Beaker settlement in Scandinavia. It is also higher in Norway, which was also the site of Beaker settlements, yet lower in Sweden, which apparently the Beakers did not reach. Is this merely a coincidence? Perhaps so, perhaps not.

    I prefer to await further data before trying to neatly force things into a box in which they might not fit.
    Indeed I had a look at Busby there and figure that might be the case. At least on their (ScotlandsDNA) maps which are focussed on Ireland and Britain they state that maps are based on people who've tested with them etc.

    It's pity Busby dataset isn't available in more comprehensive form (is Myers?) eg. including the non R1b percentages, I imagine I1 for example might have a good chunk in their Swedish sample (assumption though on my part!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Indeed I had a look at Busby there and figure that might be the case. At least on their (ScotlandsDNA) maps which are focussed on Ireland and Britain they state that maps are based on people who've tested with them etc.

    It's pity Busby dataset isn't available in more comprehensive form (is Myers?) eg. including the non R1b percentages, I imagine I1 for example might have a good chunk in their Swedish sample (assumption though on my part!)
    On their World map they said it was based on their own and other research. I don't know what that means exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    On their World map they said it was based on their own and other research. I don't know what that means exactly.
    Sounds like they probably used public available datasets, say Myers/Busby and than added in any members who were either from specific countries or whose self-reported MDKA came from there. I'm thinking in this case of those in Diaspora communities in the states who've tested etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    . . . Perhaps this merely indicates U106 was more common in the West Germanic tribes than in the East Germanic ones.
    Or given that ancient U106+ result from Sweden, it could indicate that U106 was once far more plentiful in Sweden than it is now.

    The Migration Period was, after all, the Migration Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    All the data indicates the highest concentration in of U106 in Scandinavia occurs in northern Jutland. This is apparently the area of the greatest Beaker settlement in Scandinavia. It is also higher in Norway, which was also the site of Beaker settlements, yet lower in Sweden, which apparently the Beakers did not reach. Is this merely a coincidence? Perhaps so, perhaps not.
    Perhaps, but thus far all the Bell Beaker results with sufficient coverage have been U106-, and that includes results from Germany, where U106 is far more frequent today than it is anywhere in Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I prefer to await further data before trying to neatly force things into a box in which they might not fit.
    There is plenty of data on the modern distribution of U106, but we do need more ancient data on U106.

    Right now the ancient evidence for U106 is mostly negative (i.e., it is noticeably absent from Bell Beaker), but there is that one ancient U106+ result from Sweden from a non-Beaker, Nordic Battle Axe context.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-01-2016 at 04:43 PM.

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