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Thread: Rare Y17491 subclade of Z282, found from Poland to Lebanon to Italy

  1. #1
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    Rare Y17491 subclade of Z282, found from Poland to Lebanon to Italy

    R-Z282 has three major subclades: Z280, PF6155>M458, and Y2395>Z284. But it also has a fourth, much rarer subclade: R-Y17491.

    Kits 132838 of Poland and 187138 of Ukraine belong to R-Y17491. But according to the Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project, these project members are also Y17491+ .
    182305 of Turkey
    M9785 of Lebanon
    178708 of Italy
    Ancestral countries are taken from the Y-STRs page of that same project.

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  3. #2
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    Baloch Kashmiri Uzbek Kho
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    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y17491 > R-YP4858
    mtDNA (M)
    A8a

    Pakistan United States of America
    I didn't even realize they had updated my haplogroup. When did this happen?

    R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?
    No, YFull would not have defined a new subclade unless someone else had matched you. That person has apparently not been posted to YFull's haplotree (yet?).

    If you want to know who matches you, go to the Big Y Matches page of your FTDNA account. In the dropdown list for "Filter matches by subclade", choose "R-Z282 YOU". In the resulting list of names, you should be able to guess your new, closer match.

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  6. #4
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    Pakistan United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    No, YFull would not have defined a new subclade unless someone else had matched you. That person has apparently not been posted to YFull's haplotree (yet?).

    If you want to know who matches you, go to the Big Y Matches page of your FTDNA account. In the dropdown list for "Filter matches by subclade", choose "R-Z282 YOU". In the resulting list of names, you should be able to guess your new, closer match.
    This is what I see, 3 people -- seem like Polish surnames?

    *removed*
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 01-31-2016 at 03:41 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    This is what I see, 3 people -- seem like Polish surnames?
    Please don't post the names of your personal matches--they might consider it an invasion of privacy.

    The "match" who actually mismatches you on PF6161 and PF7525 is at a different tree level, so don't count him as a true match.

    You could also take a look at the classifications of the R1a Project.

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  10. #6
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    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    I didn't even realize they had updated my haplogroup. When did this happen?

    R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?
    Kit 182305 from Turkey/Armenia is the other member of the so-called "West Asian" cluster (previously Y17491-A) who has been recently tested with Big Y and turned out to share five SNPs under Y17491 with you (they were named YP4858-62). Based on STRs, you are predicted to share some more SNPs (under YP4858) with the members of an Arab subcluster that is currently named YP4858-A1A in our R1a project.

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  12. #7
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    R1a Y17491>YP4858>

    And here I am another member from Turkey under YP4858, and under FGC64132
    M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>F GC64133>FGC64132**

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    There is also 2 sample one from Qatar and the other from bahrain under



    M173/M420/M459/M198/M417/Z283/Z282/Y17491/ YP4858/YP5820/BY27345

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  16. #9
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    R1a Y17491>YP4858>

    I have waited so long to have the results for BigY, luckily right after having the results FTDNA decided to restructure.
    Yes I do have the results but I cannot access my BigY page I am stuck with the sequence. I guess I do not have the patience genes in my DNA.

    I was hoping to submit my BAM file to YFull. But again this is on hold, because FTDNA is still not providing it after a month. I guess it's because my BAMfile will be in a new format. Then possibly I will have to face problem with YFull because the file is going to be new format??
    Anyway, I am not writing to discuss my data waiting journey.

    I am here to tell about my understanding of my subclade and brainstorm for its belongings and story.
    I will be glad to hear your thoughts on this, now I am very familiar with the subject but I might still be using the terminology wrongly please bear with me.

    Here is my sequence
    M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>F GC64133>FGC64132*

    I want to talk more on Y17491 ( https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/ ).

    I am sure there are similar cases under different branches;
    under R-17491 there are branches with somehow isolated geographies.

    As of October of 2017 R-17491 has two clades downstream.

    R-YP4858 and R-YP5872.

    R-YP5872 clearly a European clade with members from Germany, Sweden and from some other East European countries. Just like what you would expect from R1a.

    How about R-YP4858. Looking at the R1a Project page and the YFull, there are some indications.

    It is clear that it mostly belongs to Middle East. However there are unclustured members of Italy and Ukraine.
    (I know R1a administrators are following this site, I am trying not to violate the privacy of the group or the members -with what I share-, please warn me if I do, I will correct it promptly)

    How about these member from Italy and Ukraine. If they were not present in the list under YP4858, I would easily call YP4858 a MiddleEastern SubClade/Cluster. I guess it's hard to go beyond speculation for these members.

    There are few distinct geographies present themselves under YP4858,

    My country Turkey has several members under YP4858. Two of the members are with Armenian etnicity. Several members including "unknown origin" are from Dersim area of Turkey. It's yet unknown if they have any Armenian background. The members I talked about concentrated under the subclades of YP5820 and BY27345.

    I am from Turkey but I do not belong to this group as I am "presumed negative" for YP5820.

    Instead I am more related to the Lebanon/Syrian group of people (Levantine Cluster).
    Yet I am a bit different looking at even my modest 12 markers (Thanks Michal Milewski for the insight on this issue).

    Another group is concentrated more on Kuwait and United Arab Emirates.
    As they do not have any BigY results this question remains unanswered. Thanks to Smileover I've learned that there are members from Qatar and Bahrain under BY27345. I am speculating that the members from Kuwait will probably go under BY27345

    And the last geography belongs to Pakistan where our own Khanabadoshi belongs.

    I wonder when these YP4858 and YP5872 subclades parted their ways from each other.
    And if YP4858 (or maybe Y17491 itself) has a similar pathway like Z93 from Asia, considering our member from Pakistan???

    To me it's very interesting having all these Y17491 members between Eastern Europe/Scantinavia/Baltics and Middle East without anyone from Caucasia or Balkans to tie them to each other?

    Is this a common thing?
    By this I mean that having nothing of Y17491 in between East Europe and Turkey is normal?

    With the existing data it seems like, just one guy from East Europe decided to go southeast till he reached Turkey.

    I know when there are more samples the story will be clearer. But with I have it is quite intriguing.

    I'd appreciate any comment from all those interested.

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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhan View Post
    I have waited so long to have the results for BigY, luckily right after having the results FTDNA decided to restructure.
    Yes I do have the results but I cannot access my BigY page I am stuck with the sequence. I guess I do not have the patience genes in my DNA.

    I was hoping to submit my BAM file to YFull. But again this is on hold, because FTDNA is still not providing it after a month. I guess it's because my BAMfile will be in a new format. Then possibly I will have to face problem with YFull because the file is going to be new format??
    Anyway, I am not writing to discuss my data waiting journey.

    I am here to tell about my understanding of my subclade and brainstorm for its belongings and story.
    I will be glad to hear your thoughts on this, now I am very familiar with the subject but I might still be using the terminology wrongly please bear with me.

    Here is my sequence
    M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>F GC64133>FGC64132*

    I want to talk more on Y17491 ( https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/ ).

    I am sure there are similar cases under different branches;
    under R-17491 there are branches with somehow isolated geographies.

    As of October of 2017 R-17491 has two clades downstream.

    R-YP4858 and R-YP5872.

    R-YP5872 clearly a European clade with members from Germany, Sweden and from some other East European countries. Just like what you would expect from R1a.

    How about R-YP4858. Looking at the R1a Project page and the YFull, there are some indications.

    It is clear that it mostly belongs to Middle East. However there are unclustured members of Italy and Ukraine.
    (I know R1a administrators are following this site, I am trying not to violate the privacy of the group or the members -with what I share-, please warn me if I do, I will correct it promptly)

    How about these member from Italy and Ukraine. If they were not present in the list under YP4858, I would easily call YP4858 a MiddleEastern SubClade/Cluster. I guess it's hard to go beyond speculation for these members.

    There are few distinct geographies present themselves under YP4858,

    My country Turkey has several members under YP4858. Two of the members are with Armenian etnicity. Several members including "unknown origin" are from Dersim area of Turkey. It's yet unknown if they have any Armenian background. The members I talked about concentrated under the subclades of YP5820 and BY27345.

    I am from Turkey but I do not belong to this group as I am "presumed negative" for YP5820.

    Instead I am more related to the Lebanon/Syrian group of people (Levantine Cluster).
    Yet I am a bit different looking at even my modest 12 markers (Thanks Michal Milewski for the insight on this issue).

    Another group is concentrated more on Kuwait and United Arab Emirates.
    As they do not have any BigY results this question remains unanswered. Thanks to Smileover I've learned that there are members from Qatar and Bahrain under BY27345. I am speculating that the members from Kuwait will probably go under BY27345

    And the last geography belongs to Pakistan where our own Khanabadoshi belongs.

    I wonder when these YP4858 and YP5872 subclades parted their ways from each other.
    And if YP4858 (or maybe Y17491 itself) has a similar pathway like Z93 from Asia, considering our member from Pakistan???

    To me it's very interesting having all these Y17491 members between Eastern Europe/Scantinavia/Baltics and Middle East without anyone from Caucasia or Balkans to tie them to each other?


    Is this a common thing?
    By this I mean that having nothing of Y17491 in between East Europe and Turkey is normal?

    With the existing data it seems like, just one guy from East Europe decided to go southeast till he reached Turkey.

    I know when there are more samples the story will be clearer. But with I have it is quite intriguing.

    I'd appreciate any comment from all those interested.

    At this point, you should know my paternal line is evidently Baloch and among the Baloch, my tribe is of uncertain lineage (generally regarded as not "pure" Baloch). The oral history of the Baloch is of west to east from the Caspian region, along the way they captured/incorporated other peoples into their tribal system. In which case, my y-DNA fits somewhat nicely. Except for the problem that no one else in Pakistan or Iran or India seems to have the same y-DNA, and it isn't entirely certain if/when a Baloch migration occurred. So currently the thought is that my family is a later migrant from West Asia to South Asia, it seems to be the only way to reconcile the haplogroup. I believe most people think this because my results have been public for a while now, and every study still mentions that all R1a1a in South Asia is Z93+.

    Alternatively we could be totally local to the Indus (my family lives off the bank of the Indus River) and considering my father is yDNA: R-Z282+ > RY17491 / mtDNA: U7a -- people may use this as some evidence for the Out-of-India theory. I don't think this is true at all, because then there would be a lot more Z282+ results in my neck of the woods.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It's a big mystery for me. Trying to figure out Y17491 will help me figure out history of my tribe. So far my closest match is a Druze from As-Suwayda, Syria. I don't know what conclusions to draw from this.

    Except... there is a theory that the Kurds and Baloch were once one people during the Median era. They split and one group went east and one went west. Kurdish and Balochi are both NW Iranian languages so there could be merit to this. Now, futher extrapolating that the other members of this subclade are Turkish and Druze (and some Druze are actually Kurds who converted and it's possible that the Turks under this clade are also of Kurdish ancestry) ... then perhaps we have an explanation for why the Syrian, the Turk, and the Pakistani are all in the same subclade. I'm inclined to lean towards this scenario. I feel like there is a Kurdish connection.


    Or... extrapolate this further, maybe those Kurds and Druze have a Turkish-Mongol origin...because everyone in the paternal side of my family have Hazara and Turks high up in their match lists -- the Uzbek maternal side of my family doesn't! So maybe we have the story of a man who went from Eastern Europe to Central Asia (Western to Eastern Steppe), but his brothers went further into Ukraine (explains the European side of the clade). The brother in Central Asia had descendants that went to Turkey with the Seljuks and from there some descendants among the Kurds went south to Syria to become Druze. Others became settled among the Kurds or Turks, while others went east to the Caspian. The one in the Caspian region, migrates with the Baloch to the east... and that Baloch descendant migrates east again to the Indus and voila ... Khanabadoshi!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, I'm pretty sure the Dersim results are Kurdish:
    R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - Dęrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E18606
    R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - Dęrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E21646
    R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - Dęrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E22087
    R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858
    - Konya, Kurmanji FTDNA: 214352

    R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 -
    Kurdistan, Ozbas-Gerceker et al., 2013
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 10-24-2017 at 08:59 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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