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Thread: Offshoots immediately upstream and downstream from M458

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    Offshoots immediately upstream and downstream from M458

    The large R1a-M458 clade has an immediate upstream SNP named PF6155. YFull shows only one member of R-PF6155*, YF03202, who is kit 44591 of Poland. 264355 of Poland has also tested PF6155+ M458- . But the Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project shows one more R-PF6155*, kit 397280 of Italy. (Ancestral country taken from the Y-STRs page of that project.)

    Immediately downstream from M458, but upstream from major subclades L260 and CTS11962, are PF7521 and Y2604. YFull shows one customer entry at R-M458 who is definitely negative for Y2604; he is kit 281796 of Poland, and has tested negative for PF7521 as well. The Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project shows one member who is PF7521+ Y2604+ L260- CTS11962- , kit 306772 of Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The large R1a-M458 clade has an immediate upstream SNP named PF6155. YFull shows only one member of R-PF6155*, YF03202, who is kit 44591 of Poland. 264355 of Poland has also tested PF6155+ M458- . But the Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project shows one more R-PF6155*, kit 397280 of Italy. (Ancestral country taken from the Y-STRs page of that project.)

    Immediately downstream from M458, but upstream from major subclades L260 and CTS11962, are PF7521 and Y2604. YFull shows one customer entry at R-M458 who is definitely negative for Y2604; he is kit 281796 of Poland, and has tested negative for PF7521 as well. The Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project shows one member who is PF7521+ Y2604+ L260- CTS11962- , kit 306772 of Poland.
    To get the true location one need an ancient sample at the time of the above mutation, even that won't be telling the whole story unless it was a newly born boy, as people can travel long distances in a little or no time.

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    Odd how we keep getting odd samples of old type M458 in Italy. Might it have to do with lingering vestiges of Goths and vandals ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Odd how we keep getting odd samples of old type M458 in Italy. Might it have to do with lingering vestiges of Goths and vandals ?
    I think you have got it right.

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    The Roman Empire had the slave mode of production and big masses were bought, enslaved and transported to the Italian Peninsula and islands to work in agriculture and urban services, so that's also another possibility of Northern cases there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Odd how we keep getting odd samples of old type M458 in Italy. Might it have to do with lingering vestiges of Goths and vandals ?
    That's my thought. Both were multi-ethnic. The Vandals remained in what is now south-western Poland right up to their migration to the Roman world.

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    Another possibility might be the Lombards. I believe the man with this sample is from Como. The Lombards made several stops across Central Europe before their arrival in Italy. They too were multi-ethnic.

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    Alans. They also had some J1s with them.
    Last edited by paulgill; 01-31-2016 at 09:41 PM.

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    R-PF6155 would also be old enough that perhaps it coincides with the Celts time in Central Europe. A slave perhaps, but often tribe leaders would exchange their sons as a sign of good will. It's possible an individual man could have somehow joined of the Celtic clans that spread westward and ended up in northern Italy. The man's surname may give some indication as to a Germanic origin or not.

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    #264355 is described as descending from Obizor of Old Prussia, b. about 1255. So maybe this PF6155* lineage was not Slavic, but Baltic. I suppose that M458 (descendant of PF6155) could be not present in what is today Poland before early medieval times and arrival of the Slavs from the east of Poland.

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