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Thread: How much Slavic DNA exists in Greece?

  1. #11
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    What do you call a "Thracian" Greek, if from the so called Kariots, who lived around the Bulgarian town of Elhovo, they are in fact with original Torlakian origin, who Hellenised very late during Ottoman times. We have one such person in the Bulgarian DNA project and her MyOrigins is no different than the other Bulgarians, plus she has practically no Greek, only Bulgarian relatives.
    The Torlaks, who live in Eastern Serbia, Northern Macedonia and North Western Bulgaria have in fact more Eastern Europe, presumably Slavic origin than the Southern Bulgarians and Macedonians.
    People should be careful also with the so called Macedonian Greeks. During different population population exchanges on the Balkans and Anatolia some of the Slavs were expelled and the new Greeks who settled there were predominantly of Anatolian origin. The rest of the Slavs got assimilated only recently. One older study about Macedonian Greek haplogroups has collected samples from a village called Nea Nikomedia, who are recent refugee from Anatolia and no Macedonians whatsoever.
    Here is to say that the Greeks on the Balkans during Ottoman times were something like the Jews. They lived predominantly in the cities and were merchants or tradesmen. The other area that was exclusively Greek was the Black sea and Aegean coastline and the fishermen villages.
    People who were farmers inland were predominantly of Slavic origin. Albanians were initially shepherds in the mountains, but later also had an expansion in what is now Greece. First, when the West Europeans and richer Greeks from the Crusader states got evacuated after the Ottoman conquest, cities like Athens were vacated and the Albanians took over. Later they moved South and East after accepting Islam, pushing other Christians along the way into that direction.

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  3. #12
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    The ionion islands where over 300 years under Venice and many venetian families settled there

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian..._Venetian_rule

    They also brought all the greek cretan people who did not want to stay under the ottomans to the ionion islands for resettlement..............so you cannot really get any great genetic confirmation on who is who.

    also Corfu was under Venice from 1207 to 1797 ...........nearly 600 years

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    I notice judging by some results that Aegean islanders have more Northern affinities than Cretans.

  5. #14


    The average frequency of the Slavic haplogroup R1a is 11.5% nationally in Greece. It was the Greco-Macedonians and Tharacians, Indo-European tribes inhabiting a large area in Southeastern Europe, who introduced R1a to Greece from 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. R1b is associated with the Dorians, who swept southward into central Greece and then into the southern Aegean area in successive migrations beginning about 1,100 BC.

    R1a frequencies in Greece by region

    North Greece: 18%
    Central Greece: 11%
    South Greece: 10.5%
    Crete: 9%
    Aegean Islands: 10%

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post


    The average frequency of the Slavic haplogroup R1a is 11.5% nationally in Greece. It was the Greco-Macedonians and Tharacians, Indo-European tribes inhabiting a large area in Southeastern Europe, who introduced R1a to Greece from 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. R1b is associated with the Dorians, who swept southward into central Greece and then into the southern Aegean area in successive migrations beginning about 1,100 BC.

    R1a frequencies in Greece by region

    North Greece: 18%
    Central Greece: 11%
    South Greece: 10.5%
    Crete: 9%
    Aegean Islands: 10%
    Most of R1a in the Balkans, incl Greece, probably came during the early Middle Ages, not the Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 02-24-2016 at 08:29 AM.

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    Last edited by Mis; 02-24-2016 at 09:10 AM.

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    From Alena Kushniarevich et al., "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations..." (2015):

    (...) South Slavs in their turn share a similar number of IBD segments with East-West Slavs and with the ‘inter-Slavic’ Romanian, Hungarian and Gagauz populations (Fig 4B; Table G in S1 File). Notably, South Slavs share significantly fewer IBD segments for length classes 1.5–3 cM with their immediate geographic neighbors in south - Greeks, except Macedonian Greeks – than with the group of East-West Slavs (Fig 4B). Altogether, the analysis of IBD segment distributions revealed even patterns of IBD sharing among East-West Slavs–‘inter-Slavic’ populations (Hungarians, Romanians and Gagauz)–and South Slavs, i.e. across an area of assumed historic movements of people including Slavs. (...) we suggest that there is a “central-east European” genetic substratum in West and East Slavs, exemplified by NRY hgs R1a and the k3 ancestry component, and a “south-east European” one, featuring NRY hgs I2a and E plus the k2 ancestry component for South Slavs (Fig 2A and 2B, Fig 3, Table K in S1 File; Tables A,B in S1 File). Notably, the “south-east European” component does not extend to the whole Balkan Peninsula, as South Slavs are differentiated from Greek sub-populations except Macedonian Greeks (Fig 2A, Fig 4B) [55]. (...)
    So it seems that only Macedonian Greeks are similar to South Slavs (especially to South-East Slavs: Macedonians and Bulgarians).

    'Inter-Slavic' groups (separating South & North Slavs) - such as Hungarians or Austrians - seem to be more genetically Slavic.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-04-2016 at 01:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian
    Most of R1a in the Balkans, incl Greece, probably came during the early Middle Ages, not the Bronze Age.
    Male individual Zeta59 from Grave Circle B in Mycenae had mtDNA haplogroup U5a1a.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_Circle_B,_Mycenae

    In ancient DNA records, U5a1a is strongly associated with R1a, so presumably Mycenaeans had substantial R1a:



    From left to right: Zeta59 (U5a1a), warrior-prince Gamma51 (unknown mtDNA) and Beta52 (unknown mtDNA):



    Princess Gamma58 and her (most likely) brother Gamma55 had mtDNA haplogroup K:



    And male Alpha62 (also from Grave Circle B in Mycenae) - neither K nor U5a1a:



    Unfortunately we still don't have any Post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA from Greece.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-04-2016 at 01:58 PM.

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  12. #19
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    Of course, Grave Circle B were burials of the rulling class of Proto-Greeks.

    That rulling class could still (at that time) be genetically different from the general populace.

    In autosomal terms it was probably more Steppe-derived and less EEF-derived.

    ===========================

    More about Grave Circle B individuals:





    Another reconstruction of warrior-prince Gamma51 (see previous post), unknown mtDNA:



    And more about male individual Zeta59 (mtDNA U5a1a - associated with R1a by Maciamo):



    Excerpts from Maciamo about links between U5a1a, Steppe origins and R1a in aDNA records:

    (...) The Bronze Age shows a different picture. U5a1 (mostly U5a1a) suddenly supersedes U5b in Germany in remains from the Corded Ware and Unetice cultures, both linked with the advance of Indo-Europeans speakers from the Pontic Steppe in southern Russia and Ukraine. U5a1 also turns up in the Andronovo culture in southern Siberia, another culture linked with the Indo-European migrations. U5a1a was also found in elite graves from Mycenaen Greece, the period associated with the introduction of the Proto-Greek branch of Indo-European languages into Greece.

    (...)

    Iron Age remains tell the same story. U5a1/U5a1a shows up in an Indo-European kurgan burials from Kazakhstan (Lalueza-Fox et al. 2004) and from Khakassia in the Altai (Keyser et al. 2009), in kurgans from the Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture in Mongolia and southern Siberia (Pilipenko et al. 2010), in Scythian and Scytho-Sarmatian remains from Ukraine (Nikitin et al. 2011) and southern Russia (Dersarkissian 2011), and even in the classical Celtic La Tne culture in southern Germany (Knipper et al. 2014).

    U5a1a therefore appears very strongly correlated with the Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. More amazingly U5b was never found in any kurgan burial or other Indo-European remains in Asia, which means that the U5b samples from the Corded Ware, Unetice or Urnfield cultures in central Europe could represent the lineages of the indigenous inhabitants of the region who were absorbed by the Indo-European invasions. Another possibility is that U5a1a is associated with the R1a branch of the Indo-Europeans, and that other varieties of U5 would have been carried by R1b people. It is noteworthy that of the two Indo-European branches only Y-haplogroup R1a was found in the above remains from Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Siberia.

    Consequently the only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that U5a1a is linked to R1a.

    (...)

    Tajikistan also happens to be the Asian country with the highest percentage of U5 (7.5%), and most of it is U5a1, with a small minority of U5b1c. This confirms again the association between U5a1 and R1a. (...)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-04-2016 at 02:05 PM.

  13. #20
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    People who brought IE language to Greece were probably a mixture of R1a and R1b-Z2103, hard to say which was more numerous.

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