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Thread: Question about the Siwa Oasis

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    Question about the Siwa Oasis

    I was reading a blog that I recently discovered and the author had an entry about the old Y-DNA data that is out there for Siwa Berbers. I already knew that they were peculiar for their high frequency of R1b, but I never really questioned the rest of the data.

    According to this study, the Siwi sample (n=93) was 28% B2a1a and 26.9% R-V88. We all know the only other place in Africa where R-V88 has been found at such high frequencies is around the Chadic-speaking zone, that is Chad, Cameroon, Niger, Nigeria, etc. I'm not too keen on downstream mutations so please correct me if I'm off, but B2a1a also appears to have a significant presence around the same region, around northern and southern Cameroon. The sample from Siwa carried E-V38 at 6.5%.

    So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)? I haven't seen much autosomal work here. The paper confused me because it says Siwa Berbers have negligible SSA ancestry on one hand, and then as high as 51% on another. Then there is no telling how much is East African versus West African-related. Also, is it possible that the West African-related ancestry in Northwest Africans (and maybe all Berbers) is as old as their language shift?
    Last edited by Morci; 02-03-2016 at 07:33 AM.

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    Those Siwa had surprisingly very low EM81 and their yDNA is mostly RV88 and B2 , their mtDNa show links with Upper Egypt (Nubian). My guess is that they descend from a para-Chadic population that undergone a Berberization process but it is equally possible they descend from the C-Group of Nubia who were hypothesized to have spoken a Berber language. This hypothesis stem from a number of words in Nobiin language that seem to have Berber roots, the most obvious being -aman (water) which is a very pan-Berber word stemming from a frozen plurial -(a)ma(-an).
    Last edited by Odyss; 04-13-2016 at 12:32 PM.

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    Little is known about them indeed, and sometimes even less on purpose (censorship about the historically open homosexuality). What is sure is Siwa berberophones have completely different y-chromosome dna and mtdna frequencies and also a different autosomal profile than Berbers/Maghrebis. As for their "SSA" ancestry, I don't know but it is very likely heterogenous considering the wide variation of "phenotypes", some Siwis being predominantly if not mostly African.


    In Siwa, the Bedouin arabs are probably much more similar to Berbers/Maghrebis ironically, which shouldn't be too surprising since Libyan arabic is spoken there.
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
    Hidden Content

    Lactase Persistence (LP)
    13910: TT (rs4988235 AA)
    22018: AA (rs182549 TT)

    (my mother's LP: same results)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morci View Post
    I was reading a blog that I recently discovered and the author had an entry about the old Y-DNA data that is out there for Siwa Berbers. I already knew that they were peculiar for their high frequency of R1b, but I never really questioned the rest of the data.

    According to this study, the Siwi sample (n=93) was 28% B2a1a and 26.9% R-V88. We all know the only other place in Africa where R-V88 has been found at such high frequencies is around the Chadic-speaking zone, that is Chad, Cameroon, Niger, Nigeria, etc. I'm not too keen on downstream mutations so please correct me if I'm off, but B2a1a also appears to have a significant presence around the same region, around northern and southern Cameroon. The sample from Siwa carried E-V38 at 6.5%.

    So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)? I haven't seen much autosomal work here. The paper confused me because it says Siwa Berbers have negligible SSA ancestry on one hand, and then as high as 51% on another. Then there is no telling how much is East African versus West African-related. Also, is it possible that the West African-related ancestry in Northwest Africans (and maybe all Berbers) is as old as their language shift?
    You can read this excerpt from the book written by captain Claperton, Major Denham and doctor Oudney, entitled "Narrative of travels and discoveries in Northern and central africa in year 1822, 1823 and 1824 " they talk about Siwa arabs they encountered in central Africa more precisely in Borno (present NIGERIA). " There are lot of R6V88 people who are origin from Borno.
    Here is what they wrote "The Shouaas Arabs are a very extraordinary race, and have scarcely any resemblance to the Arabs of the North : they have fine open countenances, with aquiline noses and large eyes; their complexion is a light copper color : they possess great cunning with their courage, and resemble in appearance some of our best-favoured gypsies in England, particulary the women, and their Arabic is nearly pure Egyptian."
    Shuaas arabs_1.jpg

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    We'd need to know about the V88 branches they carry to say more, though it's certainly likely that they'll provide a hint to V88's origins in Africa.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    If found this blog while researching R1b and Bell Beaker,

    "The top North Africa areas with R1b are Tuaregs from Niger (33%) and Siwa berbers from Egypt (29%). The first ones, are the dead-end of the R1b-V88 going south. The second ones are the ones that stood behind and stick around the Siwa oasis (big archeological site and home of clearly outcast people of ancient Egypt for millennia). Siwa oasis means the protectors of the sun god AMUN... go figure why the boy king R1b was called Tutankh-AMUN.
    Anyway the Assyrians went very far to “meet” these people there in the Oasis and even Alexander the great made a perilous 6 day journey through the desert to meet this outcast individuals."

    http://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6b...l%20beaker.pdf

    Another paper from 2012 from Dr Anatole Klyosov discusses the R1b North African migration route.

    Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present

    http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...?paperID=19567
    Last edited by Heber; 06-01-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroups R1b, Klyosov
    Gerard Corcoran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morci View Post
    So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)?
    This question was discussed in a paper by Cruciani et al 2010. I cover it on http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

    R1b-V88.jpg
    Click to enlarge.

    It seems that these early farmers spread one branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family which includes Ancient Egyptian, the Berber languages of North Africa and the Chadic languages of West Central Africa, while the Semitic branch remained in the Levant and Arabia. We can picture farmers or pastoralists fleeing the arid Levant and crossing to North Africa. It seems that they initially avoided the swampy Nile Delta, spreading instead along the coast. The climate crisis that had driven them out of the Levant also interrupted the Saharan humid phase with a dry spell lasting centuries. Gobero in Niger was abandoned between 6200 and 5200 BC. The people who arrived in 5200 BC were of a lightly-built Mediterranean type, combining hunting, fishing and herding. These new arrivals were taking advantage of the return of chains of lakes across the Sahara, before it gradually turned back to the desert we see today. There is a strong correlation between the Chadic languages and haplogroup R1b1c (V88). Its distribution suggests that it migrated south across the Sahara to Lake Chad at this time, leaving a pocket of V88 in what is now the Siwa oasis near the western border of Egypt. This is consistent with Christopher Ehret's deduction from linguistics that Proto-Chadic emerged about 5,000 BC among a people who had migrated to Lake Chad from the Sahara.
    For references see original.

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    IMO V88 is strictly associated with the spread of nomadic pastoralism in North Africa (notably in the Sahel), this marker arrived in the Nile Valley during one of the latest, nearly final, stages of late PAA, its arrival probably correlates with the emergence of the earliest Chadic and Libyco-Berber communities (which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't). It isn't as common among AA speakers as the different branches of E-M35.1 are, nor even as J1 is quite frankly, coupled with the rather "late" TMRCA estimates I think we can rule out its presence during the earlier stages of PAA. The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-02-2016 at 01:19 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    IMO V88 is strictly associated with the spread of nomadic pastoralism in North Africa (notably in the Sahel), this marker arrived in the Nile Valley during one of the latest, nearly final, stages of late PAA, its arrival probably correlates with the emergence of the earliest Chadic and Libyco-Berber communities (which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't). It isn't as common among AA speakers as the different branches of E-M35.1 are, nor even as J1 is quite frankly, coupled with the rather "late" TMRCA estimates I think we can rule out its presence during the earlier stages of PAA. The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.
    Yeah, V88 seems to be non-existent in the Horn. Plaster's study of 5756 Ethiopians turned up all of one P(xR1a) - and that's most likely M269.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.
    As you know, I postulate a series of migrations which could explain the pattern of both AA and Y-DNA E. I suggest that Y-DNA E reflects a back-migration into Africa from an Out-of-Africa route across the southern coast of Arabia. Then we could see Y-DNA E carriers taking either PAA or a predecessor language into the southern Levant after the LGM, once the desert had receded enough to allow passage. Thus it would not have taken part in the very earliest stages of the Neolithic in the hilly flanks of the Fertile Crescent, but moved north gradually to join the farmers. Once having adopted pastoralism, some AA speakers could have moved south again into Africa to avoid the climate change that dried the Levant c. 6400 cal BC.

    which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't
    Some argue that they do. I followed that in AJ. Should I change that?
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-02-2016 at 10:20 AM.

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