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Thread: R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a (R1b-S497): a native Celtic branch of R1b1a1a2a1a1 (R1b-U106) ?

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    Question R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a (R1b-S497): a native Celtic branch of R1b1a1a2a1a1 (R1b-U106) ?

    A Romano-Briton sample 3DRIF-16 (Martiniano 2016) from the Driffield Terrace in York (Eboracum) belonged to haplogroup U106, which used to be linked with Germanic peoples. But that guy was clearly Non-Germanic and preceded any migrations of Germanic-speaking groups to Britain.

    Apart from M405/U106/S21+, he also had SNPs Z381/S263+, Z305/S376+, S1785+; so he belonged to R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a (R1b-S497):

    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    This subclade is around 4900 years old and had its TMRCA around 4200 years ago, according to age estimates by YFull:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S497/

    Its age (as well as the age of U106 as a whole) is much older than the emergence of Proto-Germanic community, so there are only very few reasons (most notably: modern frequencies; but modern frequencies are often not good reasons at all, as aDNA has been showing all the time) to assume that U106 was originally restricted only to Germanic-speakers, and entered other populations only as the result of Germanic admixture.

    Could S497 be a natively Italo-Celtic subclade of U106 ? What is the modern distribution of this subclade?

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    How was he "clearly non-Germanic", and how is it he "preceded any migrations of Germanic-speaking groups to Britain" when we know from documented history that large numbers of Germanic tribesmen served in Rome's armies as auxiliaries, many of them in Britain?

    Balance this relatively late (Roman period Britain) result against all the known Copper and Bronze Age Bell Beaker results thus far, from which U106 is conspicuous by its absence. Then add to it the fact that the oldest U106 result thus far known (~2300 BC), contemporary with Bell Beaker, comes from the Nordic Battle Axe culture cemetery at Lilla Beddinge in Sweden, a non-Beaker site in a country in which no Bell Beaker remains or sites have ever yet been found.

    I think it's a stretch to try to make this U106 from an urban Roman context into the representative of an Italo-Celtic U106 subclade. Both ancient y-dna and modern distribution militate against the idea.
     


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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
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    Oh, I forgot about the other sample, 6DRIF-3, who was also under R1b-S497, but one step further in the tree - R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a1 (R1b-DF98).

    Were they really Germanic gladiators? Both were under S497, locally born (not 1st generation migrants), autosomally similar to locals, etc.

    BTW - we have in total 12 samples of pre-Anglo-Saxon Y-DNA from the British Isles (3 Irish BA, 2 IA Britons, 7 Romano-Briton York), and 17% of them (two) are U106. I don't think that Germanic people made up 17% of British-Irish male population already around 100-300 AD.

    The fact is, that so far U106 is as much as 17% of Pre-Anglo-Saxon ancient Y-DNA from Britain and Ireland combined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Oh, I forgot about the other sample, 6DRIF-3, who was also under R1b-S497, but one step further in the tree - R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a1 (R1b-DF98).

    Were they really Germanic gladiators? Both were under S497, locally born (not 1st generation migrants), autosomally similar to locals, etc.

    BTW - we have in total 12 samples of pre-Anglo-Saxon Y-DNA from the British Isles (3 Irish BA, 2 IA Britons, 7 Romano-Briton York), and 17% of them (two) are U106. Idon't think that Germanic people made up 17% of British-Irish male population already around 100-300 AD.
    You're lumping early and late samples together to support a claim that is just untenable. What percentage of the Bronze Age and pre-Roman samples are U106?

    Zero.

    Let's see. No U106 at all among the earlier samples, then U106 suddenly appears in Roman York among the remains of men who were probably either soldiers or gladiators, and documented history tells us the Romans used Germanic tribesmen in their armies in Britain.

    I don't think this is a tough nut to crack.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-18-2016 at 05:09 PM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2
    You're lumping early and late samples together to support a claim that is just untenable.
    Well, without lumping early and late samples together, U106 is actually 29% of late (just Roman era) samples. So even more.

    But please focus just on R1b-S497 (and its child subclade R1b-DF98), not on all of U106, because that's what we are seeing there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well, without lumping early and late samples together, U106 is actually 29% of late (just Roman era) samples. So even more.

    But please focus just on R1b-S497 (and its child subclade R1b-DF98), not on all of U106, because that's what we are seeing there.
    Well, there is no U106 of any kind, let alone S497 and DF98, among the pre-Roman British samples.

    So, focusing on them, we can say they show up suddenly, without precedent, among the remains of men who were either soldiers or gladiators in an urban context at Roman York.

    I do not see how that would lead one to think that S497 is an Italo-Celtic clade. Quite the contrary, I think it tends to support the basic Germanic nature of U106.

    Of course, we need a lot more ancient y-dna from Britain. If U106 shows up in Bronze Age Britain among the Bell Beaker people or among the very early Iron Age British Celts, then I will change my mind about it there.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-18-2016 at 05:19 PM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    I just checked Yfull and the phylogeny of U106 seems pretty robust. Maybe there is a different branch that is more consistent with Germanic migration to England. Is L48 more common in northern Germany? That seems to be under a different node. As more and more research goes into this, it becomes more clear that there is a divide but it's not always such a broad brush like P312 or U106. For example, there is a lot of support L238 is quite plainly a Norse marker.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Isn't S497 under Z156? And isn't the German princely or royal House of Wettin R1b-Z156?

    I have to confess that I don't keep up with all of U106's various subclades, but I would be surprised if S497 is unprecedented on the Continent.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    I've checked FTDNA R1b-U106 Project for R1b-Z306 (= S497) and R1b-DF98 results:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106?iframe=ymap

    Carriers of the most basal subclades of R1b-Z306/S497 seem to be, mostly, British.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-18-2016 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Isn't S497 under Z156? And isn't the German princely or royal House of Wettin R1b-Z156?

    I have to confess that I don't keep up with all of U106's various subclades, but I would be surprised if S497 is unprecedented on the Continent.
    Apparently there was a thread here on the subject awhile back, and the German House of Wettin is DF98+ (which makes it S497+, as well):

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...oyal-BigY-test

    Btw, almost everybody's everything from FTDNA is "mostly British" because of the tremendous Isles bias in FTDNA's database:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...me-Comparisons
    Last edited by rms2; 02-18-2016 at 05:42 PM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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