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Thread: Map of ancient E samples

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  3. #342
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    Woo!! Just took a look at the map on page 1.

    Looking at the updated map, we see how data capturing can distort or massively screw a phenomena.

    See how tbe region(Africa) with by far the highest concentration of E haplogroups presently; the region with the "oldest" haplogroups, both ancient and modern; the region where the haplogroup almost certainly originated from; the region with ALL the E sub and sub-sub haplogroups; in fact, the only region where most of the exclusive E sub haplogroups is domiciled, is represented on the map.

    The data is correct. But it terribly distorts the true picture due to insufficient find and analysis of ancient DNA form Africa, which is the main region for the E haplogroup.

    There really needs to be archaeological find and analysis of ancient DNA in Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taharqa View Post
    Woo!! Just took a look at the map on page 1.

    Looking at the updated map, we see how data capturing can distort or massively screw a phenomena.

    See how tbe region(Africa) with by far the highest concentration of E haplogroups presently; the region with the "oldest" haplogroups, both ancient and modern; the region where the haplogroup almost certainly originated from; the region with ALL the E sub and sub-sub haplogroups; in fact, the only region where most of the exclusive E sub haplogroups is domiciled, is represented on the map.

    The data is correct. But it terribly distorts the true picture due to insufficient find and analysis of ancient DNA form Africa, which is the main region for the E haplogroup.

    There really needs to be archaeological find and analysis of ancient DNA in Africa.
    It does not for all of Africa, because much of Africa got haplogroup E dominated fairly late. We see it from the data that the orginal ancient Subsaharan populations being totally dominated by haplogroup A and B.

    The question is therefore mainly when haplogroup E appeared in Northern Africa and from there we have some of the oldest samples from Iberomaurisians. IBM were newcomers, therefore the question remains whether E was already present or even dominant in Ancient North Africans before or not. For the rest of Africa haplogroup E being largely a founder and replacement event. In many regions of Subsaharan Africa haplogroup might be younger than in Europe, dating no further back than the Bantu expansion:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion

    Proto-Bantu being just an offshot of Niger-Kordofanian which in turn expanded fairly late themselves. So much of the Subsaharan African haplogroup E dominace is like the haplogroup R dominance in Europe.

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  6. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    It does not for all of Africa, because much of Africa got haplogroup E dominated fairly late. We see it from the data that the orginal ancient Subsaharan populations being totally dominated by haplogroup A and B.

    The question is therefore mainly when haplogroup E appeared in Northern Africa and from there we have some of the oldest samples from Iberomaurisians. IBM were newcomers, therefore the question remains whether E was already present or even dominant in Ancient North Africans before or not. For the rest of Africa haplogroup E being largely a founder and replacement event. In many regions of Subsaharan Africa haplogroup might be younger than in Europe, dating no further back than the Bantu expansion:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion

    Proto-Bantu being just an offshot of Niger-Kordofanian which in turn expanded fairly late themselves. So much of the Subsaharan African haplogroup E dominace is like the haplogroup R dominance in Europe.
    Very silly to associate E in Sub-saharan Africa with a relatively recent founder/replacement effect from North Africa due to existence of the Iberomaurusians when all the existing Iberomaurusian samples we have belong to a single very young branch of E.

    That is much more akin to using the R found in the Iron Gates samples to indicate that R originated in the Balkans, rather than looking at the regions that have the most modern diversity and claiming an origin there.

    North Africa is still the most likely geographical source of E in the rest of Africa but the massive diversity in SSA populations and the near absence in the rest of the world makes it seem very old in the region.

    It almost certainly predates the Iberomaurusians who later contributed to West Africans.

    Most of Africa is barely sampled (especially the regions that have the most diversity in E branchs) so I wouldn't be certain about the origins of an incredibly ancient lineage like E until we get some proper ancient samples from those regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Very silly to associate E in Sub-saharan Africa with a relatively recent founder/replacement effect from North Africa due to existence of the Iberomaurusians when all the existing Iberomaurusian samples we have belong to a single very young branch of E.

    That is much more akin to using the R found in the Iron Gates samples to indicate that R originated in the Balkans, rather than looking at the regions that have the most modern diversity and claiming an origin there.

    North Africa is still the most likely geographical source of E in the rest of Africa but the massive diversity in SSA populations and the near absence in the rest of the world makes it seem very old in the region.

    It almost certainly predates the Iberomaurusians who later contributed to West Africans.

    Most of Africa is barely sampled (especially the regions that have the most diversity in E branchs) so I wouldn't be certain about the origins of an incredibly ancient lineage like E until we get some proper ancient samples from those regions.
    Horn Africa have bigger variety in branches under Haplogroup E
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_Neolithic
    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Very silly to associate E in Sub-saharan Africa with a relatively recent founder/replacement effect from North Africa due to existence of the Iberomaurusians when all the existing Iberomaurusian samples we have belong to a single very young branch of E.

    That is much more akin to using the R found in the Iron Gates samples to indicate that R originated in the Balkans, rather than looking at the regions that have the most modern diversity and claiming an origin there.

    North Africa is still the most likely geographical source of E in the rest of Africa but the massive diversity in SSA populations and the near absence in the rest of the world makes it seem very old in the region.

    It almost certainly predates the Iberomaurusians who later contributed to West Africans.

    Most of Africa is barely sampled (especially the regions that have the most diversity in E branchs) so I wouldn't be certain about the origins of an incredibly ancient lineage like E until we get some proper ancient samples from those regions.
    I never said that IBM brought haplogroup E to all of Africa. I just said these are very old E samples and they are newcomers. Obviously I do expect the non-E1b1b carriers of haplogroup E to be in Africa for much longer. We do know however, that much of Subsaharan Africa had nothing to do with that, because the local foragers being dominated by haplgroup A and B and that E came from North Africa and East Africa in different expansions.

    As for non-E1b1b in Africa, I think it represents the Ancient North Africans after the split of ANA and Basal Eurasian.

    Like:
    Paleo-African (West/Central/South) <-> Neo-African/Ancient North African (North/East)
    Ancient North African <-> Basal Eurasian
    Basal Eurasian <-> Crown Eurasian

    Ancient North African split off from Basal Eurasian with a dominance of non-E1b1b haplogroup E and lived in the Green Sahara. IBM did cause their migration South, where they encountered ancient African foragers, dominated by hg A+B in West Africa. That's how modern (Western, Niger-Kordofanian) Subsaharans emerged, by ANA mixing into local West African foragers. East Africa had a different history. At the time and site of Shum Laka, this process just started.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-25-2022 at 09:35 PM.

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  11. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I never said that IBM brought haplogroup E to all of Africa. I just said these are very old E samples and they are newcomers. Obviously I do expect the non-E1b1b carriers of haplogroup E to be in Africa for much longer. We do know however, that much of Subsaharan Africa had nothing to do with that, because the local foragers being dominated by haplgroup A and B and that E came from North Africa and East Africa in different expansions.

    As for non-E1b1b in Africa, I think it represents the Ancient North Africans after the split of ANA and Basal Eurasian.

    Like:
    Paleo-African (West/Central/South) <-> Neo-African/Ancient North African (North/East)
    Ancient North African <-> Basal Eurasian
    Basal Eurasian <-> Crown Eurasian

    Ancient North African split off from Basal Eurasian with a dominance of non-E1b1b haplogroup E and lived in the Green Sahara. IBM did cause their migration South, where they encountered ancient African foragers, dominated by hg A+B in West Africa. That's how modern (Western, Niger-Kordofanian) Subsaharans emerged, by ANA mixing into local West African foragers. East Africa had a different history. At the time and site of Shum Laka, this process just started.
    but H.g E-M96 first history is in horn africa but i think is very difficult know any H.g is related with autosomal basal-eurasian
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_Neolithic
    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post

    Ancient North African split off from Basal Eurasian with a dominance of non-E1b1b haplogroup E and lived in the Green Sahara. IBM did cause their migration South, where they encountered ancient African foragers, dominated by hg A+B in West Africa. That's how modern (Western, Niger-Kordofanian) Subsaharans emerged, by ANA mixing into local West African foragers. East Africa had a different history. At the time and site of Shum Laka, this process just started.

    yes old ancient remains from east africa and central africa its belong under H.g A and B Even mota have in autosomal IBM and Levant is data in 2500 B.C its same date bantu expansion
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_Neolithic
    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

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  14. #349
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    A lot of these basal clades are in Arabia look at y-full hopefully we get more results from africa before 6000kya soon and also arabia. To me it almost seems E1b1b is from Levant and or Egypt while the rest is perhaps from Arabia and or Horn of Africa (or perhaps the red sea or persian gulf basin). But ancient dna could show different results. Results from 3,000 years ago are not old enough to tell ultimate origins. Speaking of continental origins in the LGM were the continents the same as they are today becasue the sea levels are quite different. Also the rea sea was much lower in the LGM blurring the lines between Eurasia and Africa like how the bering sea not existing blurred the lines between Eurasia and North America (but that's a different story).
    Maternal Uncle y-line= F0R1b1-L21

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    Quote Originally Posted by venustas View Post
    A lot of these basal clades are in Arabia look at y-full hopefully we get more results from africa before 6000kya soon and also arabia. To me it almost seems E1b1b is from Levant and or Egypt while the rest is perhaps from Arabia and or Horn of Africa (or perhaps the red sea or persian gulf basin). But ancient dna could show different results. Results from 3,000 years ago are not old enough to tell ultimate origins. Speaking of continental origins in the LGM were the continents the same as they are today becasue the sea levels are quite different. Also the rea sea was much lower in the LGM blurring the lines between Eurasia and Africa like how the bering sea not existing blurred the lines between Eurasia and North America (but that's a different story).
    Do you mean H.g E1b1b a formed in peninsula arabia
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_Neolithic
    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

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