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Thread: Map of ancient E samples

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Unfortunately your link doesn't work.

    I can only emphasize this quotation:


    Indeed, that's the core zone.



    Noua is rather a pastoralist herder group which indeed displaced Wietenberg. I don't think they really played a big role in the Gava-formation and are unrelated to E-V13. I would expect them to be rather R1a inclined, possibly R1b and I2 too.



    I wrote the above comment before reading yours. Totally agree. I think there were push and pull factors involved. Simple put, the Channeled Ware complex pushed into the soft parts after being under pressure itself, while at the same time having produced innovations which made it totally superiour militarily. I also think that a main factor for the expansion was internal growth and conflicts. I just have to keep coming back to Teleac, such a big fortification and important Early Iron Age centre, which being attacked more than once and finally destroyed. These were, for their time, very big and epic sieges and battles taking place, large armies of well equipped, for their time, "high tech warriors" with the newest iron swords.

    My initial idea was also that the true source group is Otomani, but let's see. However, I'm sure Gava was like the high edge centre of a sphere of communication, I'm not saying that Gava in the narrow sense was the only expanding group, not at all. Its rather that all the other formation of channeled/fluted ware seem to be interconnected and inspired by it. How much direct gene flow and patrilinear dominance of Gava clans was involved, that's up to debate and this can only be answered by ancient DNA being tested. Like if looking at Belegiš II-Gava, probably the most important expansion group of the channeled ware complex for the whole Danubian and Balkan sphere, surely an important spreader of E-V13, I wouldn't exclude direct Gava groups being involved in its formation. But that needs to be proven...

    And I totally agree with the comparison with Slavs, which I used myself before, its just the same process, the same pathways, the same soft spots used by a people under pressure themselves, also by their own demographic success, with advantages at hand.
    Sorry for the link.
    This link should be much better now.
    I think it's a great read...
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Sorry for the link.
    This link should be much better now.
    I think it's a great read...
    Thank you. By the way, what is your opinion on the deeper origin of the Otomani culture? As you know there are a lot of opinions about that too...

  4. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Thank you. By the way, what is your opinion on the deeper origin of the Otomani culture? As you know there are a lot of opinions about that too...
    Not really sure TBH...
    I believe it was an Indo-European culture that preserved great deal of the old Neolithic traditions and accordingly one which was more EEF influenced.
    Some of its pottery elements involved spirals and other geometric symbols which were incised on the pottery. This was typical for the old LBK Culture.
    Other elements such as the knobbed ornaments make me think that Ottomany Culture was influenced by the Schneckenberg Culture as well.

    What do you think?
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  6. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Not really sure TBH...
    I believe it was an Indo-European culture that preserved great deal of the old Neolithic traditions and accordingly one which was more EEF influenced.
    Some of its pottery elements involved spirals and other geometric symbols which were incised on the pottery. This was typical for the old LBK Culture.
    Other elements such as the knobbed ornaments make me think that Ottomany Culture was influenced by the Schneckenberg Culture as well.

    What do you think?
    I'm not qualified to answer that, but let's put it that way, I focus currently on the Epi-Corded context of Eastern Slovakia and I think that especially the Košťany culture is also interesting to look at. There are many unknowns, not even the continuity of Otomani is for sure. However, going by the Pannonian study, it will be very important which dates their samples will have, because like shown in this paper:
    In the first time-block
    (2200–2000 BC) there is a distribution of components
    with moderate probability in Eastern
    Slovakian Plain, Košice and Hornád basin.
    Analysed locations might be seen as hotspots
    for further expansion of the OFCC settlements
    in the following time-periods. Between
    2000–1800 BC, the settlements spread further
    towards the periphery of studied territory.
    During this time, the OFCC activity expands
    to southern Slovakia.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...odelling_study

    Otomani expanded to Southern Slovakia over time, at its height. If they have picked up samples from about the time of the expansion and when Otomani was at its peak, we will see which people constituted their population. However, if so, they won't be E-V13, because the only sample was rather further to the West, among Nitra individuals with R1a. This would actually mean that Otomani might be out too, if they sampled it.

    I just want to get that data published and more details, could change a lot.

    Interesting for what we talked about, the mobility and movement of Otomani:
    In this context it
    is interesting to observe the evidence of ceramic and also other artefacts of Otomany Culture
    in Southwest Slovakia occurring on the settlements of late Maďarovce Culture. It is unclear
    whether Otomany Culture bearers movement toward the West was the natural consequence
    of contacts between two neighbouring cultures, or rather the result of pressure from Eastern
    European cultures. It is worth mentioning that all fortified settlements of Otomany Culture
    in East Slovakia met a sudden fiery end. On the other side, almost all settlements of Maďarovce
    Culture in Southwest Slovakia were intentionally and gradually deserted.
    https://www.academia.edu/44749198/4_...Thera_eruption

    We can never automatically assume continuity. Never. Its always possible, under the given circumstances, that new people came in from a region we don't have on the radar. What's clear however is, that there was no movement from South of significance after the MBA, which makes the Pannonian study so important. We have plenty of movements from the Northern Danubian and Carpathian sphere down, but little to nothing in the opposite direction.

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  8. #265
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    LIB11, pre-Slavic E-L241 sample from Břeclav, Moravia, 5th century.

    Read more...

    Results storage

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  10. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    LIB11, pre-Slavic E-L241 sample from Břeclav, Moravia, 5th century.

    Read more...

    Results storage
    Can be uploaded to yfull

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  12. #267
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    Added three individuals from 15th-century Ellwangen, South Germany (source). Added one Migration Period individual from what is now Moravia (source).
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    Ancestral paternal origin: [BigY results and YFull interpretation coming soon]
    Ancestral maternal origin: Nordic Bronze Age > Pre-Roman Iron Age > Roman Iron Age > Germanic Iron Age > Longobard

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  14. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    Added three individuals from 15th-century Ellwangen, South Germany (source). Added one Migration Period individual from what is now Moravia (source).
    Interesting, Ellwangen:
    E-M5172 (515-373 ybp)
    E-PF2211 (515-373 ybp)
    E-FGC18986(xPF2440) (515-373 ybp)
    Last edited by Riverman; 04-19-2021 at 12:10 PM.

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  16. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passa View Post
    Added one Migration Period individual from what is now Moravia (source).
    Thank you Passa!
    Is it official that the Moravian sample is from the 5th century? Some people wrote it could be from the 9th/10th century like the Pohansko samples.

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  18. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Interesting, Ellwangen:
    WOW found e-pf2431

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