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Thread: R1b L23

  1. #1
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    R1b L23

    I'm Posting this as a follow up from another Post. On my Maternal Side, there is R1b L23, from Avellino Province, Italy, with Medieval roots in the Salerno Province. Obviously further Testing would be needed, but I'm aware the money is on that they are one of the Z2103 or Z2105 Subclades. What is the current knowledge on these Branches, specifically the origins of their presence in South Italy?
    Paternal Haplogroup: I2a1c (Ancestor: Albert I Lee (Family surname was "Brooks" prior to the British-Boer War II) / Born: 1900-Middlesbrough Yorkshire, England)

    Maternal Haplogroup: J2a1 (Ancestor: Maria B. Cavallini / Born: 1893-Livorno, Tuscany, Italy)

    Places Of Ancestry: Yorkshire, England/ Durham, England/ Lancashire, England/ Abruzzo, Italy/ Campania, Italy/ Tuscany, Italy

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  3. #2
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    R1b-Z2103 has become a rather broad subject. Many subclades have been found. There is also the possiblity of him being R1b-PF7562 (L23+, L150-, Z2103-, L51-) Please have your relative join the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) if he has not already.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdis...1b-Z2103-Z2105
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdis...arly-Subclades
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    R1b-Z2103 has become a rather broad subject. Many subclades have been found. There is also the possiblity of him being R1b-PF7562 (L23+, L150-, Z2103-, L51-) Please have your relative join the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) if he has not already.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdis...1b-Z2103-Z2105
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdis...arly-Subclades
    Thanks, I agree it is an interesting and complex subject. Many have told me it is due to Greek Colonization, but as we see it too widespread to be due only just to that. From Tuscany, to Umbria, to Abruzzo.
    Last edited by Barellalee; 03-01-2016 at 08:15 AM.
    Paternal Haplogroup: I2a1c (Ancestor: Albert I Lee (Family surname was "Brooks" prior to the British-Boer War II) / Born: 1900-Middlesbrough Yorkshire, England)

    Maternal Haplogroup: J2a1 (Ancestor: Maria B. Cavallini / Born: 1893-Livorno, Tuscany, Italy)

    Places Of Ancestry: Yorkshire, England/ Durham, England/ Lancashire, England/ Abruzzo, Italy/ Campania, Italy/ Tuscany, Italy

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    Well, I was thinking to open a new thread, about R1B-L23.
    Highest percentages from Europe, of R1B-L23, are found in Kosovo, if I am not wrong, where R1B-L23 makes more than 20% of the paternal lines.
    Romania has also significant R1B, from East Europe, so Romania might also have R1B-L23, but I have not seen any tests till now.
    From where most R1B-L23 could come?
    From my point of view, most probable is SE Europe Celts.

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    Hello,

    I too have tested confirmed R1b-L23. I am both sides Italian and a genetic newbie, But I have found public research if someone can interpret the data.

    SOURCE:Advances in Anthropology 2012. Vol.2, No.2, 87-105
    Published Online May 2012 in SciRes (http://www.SciRP.org/journal/aa) DOI:10.4236/aa.2012.22010


    Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present
    Anatole A. Klyosov The Academy of DNA Genealogy, Newton, USA Email: [email protected]

    Relevant Discussion: Article Pages 7 -11

    "Haplogroup R1b (mainly R1b1a2-L23) among Bashkirs, and in the Caucasus, Anatolia, Middle East R-L23 apparently arose on the eastern side of the Russian Plain, where Europe meets Asia, ~6200 ybp and migrated to the Caucasus and further South, to Anatolia and the Middle East. Another branch of L23 went westward, to Europe, approximately 4500 ybp. The most eastern population with the prevailing R-L23 sub
    clade is the Bashkirs, a Turkic-language people who live largely on both sides of the Ural Mountains and in North Kazakhstan. Frequency of R1b haplogroup reaches 84% in the Perm Bashkirs, 81% among Baimak Bashkirs, and lower figures in other Bashkir tribes (Lobov, 2009). 29 of 10 marker haplotypes of subclade R-L23 of the Bashkirs were published (Myres et al., 2010), and their base haplotype is 12 24 14 10 X X X 12 12 13 13 30 - 10. This is a typical albeit slightly mutated L23 haplotype with its characteristic first allele DYS393 = 12. 26 haplotypes of those 29 were identical, as shown above, and the whole Bashkir L23 branch has a common ancestor who lived only 575 175 ybp. However, this base haplotype differs from the European R-L23 base haplotype 12 24 14 10 X X X 12 12 13 14 29 - 11 by three mutations, which sets these two base haplotypes apart by 3/.018 = 167 → 200 conditional generations—5000 years, and places their common ancestor at 5500 ybp. Other Bashkir haplotypes belonged to R-M269 (one haplotype), R-M73 (10 haplotypes), and R-U152 (8 haplotypes). The last series of haplotypes were all identical to each other, and thus are derived from a very recent common ancestor, who certainly had a European origin [U152 arose in Europe 4125 450 ybp (Klyosov, 2011b)]. We therefore see today’s reflection of ancient migrations of the Arbins westward from Central Asia, apparently from the South Siberian region, across the South Urals and further to the Russian Plain and then the Caucasus. Almost all R1b1a2 haplotypes in the Caucasus region belong to the subclade L23 (with its characteristic DYS393 = 12). In a recent paper (Balanovsky et al., 2012) 90 Caucasian haplotypes of R1b haplogroup were listed, and with exception of five R1b* haplotypes and a relatively “young” Abkhazian branch (Figure 7) 79 of 81 haplotypes (97.5%) in the dataset were of the L23 subclade (Note: the cited paper did not consider haplotype trees nor has analyzed the haplotypes in the manner presented here). The same pattern is observed with Armenian R1b haplotypes, and with most of Anatolian R1b haplotypes (Klyosov, 2010c, 2011c). The 67 marker base R-L23 haplotype, obtained from an extended haplotype dataset from the world over (tree Figure 8) is as follows: 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 - 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23) The L23 base short Caucasian haplotype in Figure 7 fits exactly to the above haplotype (the matching alleles are marked in bold). A common ancestor of the L23 subclade lived ~6200 ybp (Klyosov, 2010d, 2011a). 81 Caucasian L23 haplotypes containing 425 mutations from their base haplotype, give 425/ 81/.035 = 150 → 176 conditional generations, or 4400 490 years to their common ancestor. The “younger” date (compared with the “age” of L23 of about 6200 ybp) can be explained by a detailed consideration of an extended series of 107 of R-L23 haplotypes listed in the FTDNA Project (see the legend in Figure 8). The tree in Figure 8 splits into two parts. On the left are 38 haplotypes, with the base 12 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 - 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23, branch)
    Copyright 2012 SciRes. 93
    A. A. KLYOSOV
    Copyright 2012 SciRes. 94


    Figure 7. The 19-marker 90 haplotype tree for R1b haplotypes in the Caucasus (Lezghins, Ossets, Avars, Ankhaz, Circassians, Chechens, Dargins, Kaitaks). Haplotypes 1 - 5 (above on the left) represent R1b* subclade, and haplotypes 49, 57 - 59 (above on the left) represent a “young” Abkhazian branch. Haplotypes were listed in (Balanovsky et al., 2012)
    On the right are 69 haplotypes, with the base 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 - 11 11 19 23 15 16 18 17 36 38 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23, branch) More than 70% of haplotypes of the Armenians and Turks from the dataset belong to the second and larger branch as well as all eight Iraqis and all five Iranians in the dataset. Presence of R-L23 of the Iranians might be a result of diffusion of the subclade from Anatolia eastward, or the migration of the Arbins might have been southward from the Russian Plain east of the Caspian Sea. Both branches descended from their ancestral R-L23 base haplotype, and are parted by 9 mutations (marked in bold). These 9 mutations are accumulated over 9/.12 = 75 → 81 conditional generations, or 2025 “lateral” years. The first branch split 4600 490 ybp; the second, 4200 440 ybp. Therefore, their common ancestor lived (4600 + 4200 + 2025)/2 = 5400 800 ybp. This fits within margin of error to the time when a common ancestor of the subclade R-L23 lived (~6200 ybp). Extended, 111 marker haplotypes available for the same data- set, and for the smaller branch the base haplotype is as follows: 12 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 - 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 - 36 15 9 15 12 25 26
    19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 10 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11 (L23, branch) It differs by 16 mutations from that of the larger branch (7 mutations added by the 68 - 111 extension), which separates the branches by 16/.198 = 82 → 90 generations, or 2250 years, and the R-L23 common ancestor lived (4600 + 4200 + 2250)/2 = 5525 700 years—similar to 5400 800 ybp, obtained above, and illustrates the consistency of calculations. It seems that the Caucasian R-L23 haplotypes with their common ancestor of 4400 490 years belong to one of the branches in the tree in Figure 8. A much smaller Caucasian R1b dataset, analyzed earlier (Klyosov, 2008a) resulted with similar times—4650 700 ybp, as the recent, larger dataset of short haplotypes (Balanovsky et al., 2012). The Caucasian R-L23 haplotypes may have experienced a population bottleneck around 5000 ybp. 120 of 17 marker Armenian haplotypes were published recently in (Herrera et al., 2011). A haplotype tree, composed from those haplotypes, is shown in Figure 9. It consists of three approximately equal (by number, or by “weight”) branches. Five haplotypes of the M269 mini-branch are nearly equal to each other, evidencing only two mutations among their 85 alleles. Their common ancestor was 300 210 ybp. The balance of 115 haplotypes of L23 subclade, have 784 mutations from their base haplotype 12 24 14 11 11 14 X X 13 13 13 29 - 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 (the right-hand side of the haplotype correponds to DYS 458, 437, 448, GATA H4, DYS 456, 438, 635).
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Lancer; 06-15-2020 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #6
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    mihaitzateo,

    You might want to see my new Rib-L23 posting.

    Lancer

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    Ancient dna has thoroughly refuted Klyosov's "Arbin" stuff, specifically his claim that R1b represents Turkic Tengri worshipers, etc. Klyosov totally made up the term "Arbin" from the sound of AR-ONE-B, in the same way a few years ago some other clowns had designated anyone who belonged to y haplogroup R1a as the "Ar1ans".

    There is a certain type of individual who still believes that modern y-haplogroup distribution and various machinations with modern STR haplotypes hold the key to the origins of y-dna haplogroups. That flew all over the place back ten years ago or so, before the revolution in ancient dna testing. Now it's anachronistic, and most of what was done with it, like Klyosov's work, has been discredited.

    BTW, you need some SNP testing, because L23 is pretty far up the R1b tree, and there is no way you, as a modern man, have a terminal SNP of L23.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-15-2020 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Omission

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Ancient dna has thoroughly refuted Klyosov's "Arbin" stuff, specifically his claim that R1b represents Turkic Tengri worshipers, etc. Klyosov totally made up the term "Arbin" from the sound of AR-ONE-B . . .
    I hope nobody minds, but I want to discuss briefly my ideas on just how Klyosov came up with his invented term "Arbins". Since he used it to mean R1b, it's pretty obviously based on that. He probably began with the idea to call us the Ar1bs or "Aribs", but realized that looks and sounds in English too much like "Arabs". For a similar reason, he rejected Ar1bins, because it looks and sounds too much like "Arabians".

    So Klyosov moved the digit, like this - Rb1 - and added an n to come up with "Arb1ns" or Arbins.

    He had to add the n at the end, otherwise his name for our haplogroup would have sounded like the name of an American fast food restaurant chain: Arby's.

    Just my guesswork. It doesn't really matter: "Arbins" never caught on and has gone into the dustbin of useless terms.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-15-2020 at 05:58 PM.

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    rms2,

    I appreciate the input. Does your evaluation of the questionable Arbins term discount the reasoning that R1b-L23 arose in the Caucasus region as per Klyosov's timeline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    rms2,

    I appreciate the input. Does your evaluation of the questionable Arbins term discount the reasoning that R1b-L23 arose in the Caucasus region as per Klyosov's timeline?
    Well, the oldest L23 we have comes from the Samara area in what is now Russia. I think it probably arose on the steppe.

    Who did you test with to get your L23 result?

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