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Thread: The Origin of Romanians (Vlachs)

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    One problem I find with the idea that Romance speakers survived "in the mountains as shepherds" is that this is based on later literary-Romanticized anecdotes (vigorously taken up by many scholars as "fact") but not supported by 5-7th century evidence. I.e if there were romance speakers in 6th century wallachia- they didn't live in forests and mountains as nomads, for no such people exist acc. to archaeology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    This thread will act as a depository of studies and opinions on the origin and spread of Romanians.

    Carpi=Albainians ?............more than one person has made this comment that Albanians origins are in the Carpi tribe of the southern Carpathians mountains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    One problem I find with the idea that Romance speakers survived "in the mountains as shepherds" is that this is based on later literary-Romanticized anecdotes (vigorously taken up by many scholars as "fact") but not supported by 5-7th century evidence. I.e if there were romance speakers in 6th century wallachia- they didn't live in forests and mountains as nomads, for no such people exist acc. to archaeology
    It's based on Gesta Hungarorum, the medieval chronicle that explains the origin of Hungarians. If this source is not accurate then the whole chronicle about the origin of our neigbhours can be discarded.

    During the late ninth century the Hungarians invaded the Pannonian basin, where the province of Pannonia was inhabited—according to the Gesta Hungarorum, written around 1200 by the anonymous chancellor of King Bela III of Hungary—by Slavs, Bulgars, Blacs, and pastores Romanorum, "shepherds of the Romans" (sclauij, Bulgarij et Blachij, ac pastores romanorum in the original).

    If pastores Romanorum does not clearly hint at how Romanians from there called themselves then there is always Blacs. It seems to be a variation of Vlachs, taken from Slavs.

    Nota bene: Romanians never called themselves Vlachs, that's a foreign name. The local name has always been român. What has later become the state of Wallachia, had the name of Țara Românească in Romanian. Țara = terra = land, român = Romanian (clearly deriving from roman), -ească = feminine variation of -escu = of

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

    acc. to archaeology
    I'll also cover the acrchaeology, in later posts though.
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 03-02-2016 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Carpi=Albainians ?............more than one person has made this comment that Albanians origins are in the Carpi tribe of the southern Carpathians mountains
    Carpians are basically an offshoot of the Dacians/Thracians who haven't been latinised. Albanians have more ancestors than this, but one of them could be the Carpians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    It's based on Gesta Hungarorum, the medieval chronicle that explains the origin of Hungarians. If this source is not accurate then the whole chronicle about the origin of our neigbhours can be discarded.

    During the late ninth century the Hungarians invaded the Pannonian basin, where the province of Pannonia was inhabited—according to the Gesta Hungarorum, written around 1200 by the anonymous chancellor of King Bela III of Hungary—by Slavs, Bulgars, Blacs, and pastores Romanorum, "shepherds of the Romans" (sclauij, Bulgarij et Blachij, ac pastores romanorum in the original).

    If pastores Romanorum does not clearly hint at how Romanians from there called themselves then there is always Blacs. It seems to be a variation of Vlachs, taken from Slavs.

    Nota bene: Romanians never called themselves Vlachs, that's a foreign name. The local name has always been român. What has later become the state of Wallachia, had the name of Țara Românească in Romanian. Țara = terra = land, român = Romanian (clearly deriving from roman), -ească = feminine variation of -escu = of

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum
    Yes I see, but the entire problem with the Chronicle is that it is written hundreds of years after the collapse of Roman influence north of the Danube, and even hundreds of years after the arrival of Goths, Huns and Slavs. So really, it is only accurate about events around time of its writing (minus the usual personal agendas of writers), not events from 500 AD.

    So maybe some Romance speakers were pastoralists in Transylvania around the high Middle Ages, but it cannot be used to construct events from, say, 500 AD.

    I'll also cover the acrchaeology, in later posts though.
    Ok
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 03-02-2016 at 11:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes I see, but the entire problem with the Chronicle is that it is written hundreds of years after the collapse of Roman influence north of the Danube, and even hundreds of years after the arrival of Goths, Huns and Slavs. So really, it is only accurate about events around time of its writing (minus the usual personal agendas of writers), not events from 500 AD.

    So, one cannot bypass hard evidence from archaeology in favour of a piece of writing 800 years later. And that evidence shows that the communities living in Wallachia, Transylvania and Moldavia practiced agriculture in plains and river valleys, not moved around with animals in forests and mountains.
    The chronicle covers the events that are important to understanding the Hungarian settlement in Europe. It's timeframe ranges from the 9th to the 12th century. What can be extracted from this work is the written evidence that Romanians were residing alongside Slavs in central Transylvania, Wallachia and further South over the Danube. We can speculate whether Romanians settled gradually North of the Danube, originating from the romanised population in the South. Or if they were driven South of the Danube by the migrating waves of Avars and Slavs, while some of them managed to hold their ground in the Carpathians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Carpians are basically an offshoot of the Dacians/Thracians who haven't been latinised. Albanians have more ancestors than this, but one of them could be the Carpians.

    Any idea why this map suggests Serbia was the Albanian homeland?

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

    The latter source described the Slavs as the first settlers in the Carpathian Basin and mentioned that they were conquered by the "Volokhi" before the Hungarians arrived and expelled the Volokhi.[76][77] According to Györffy, Kristó and other historians, Anonymus misinterpreted his source when identifying the Volokhi with the Vlachs, because the who occupied Pannonia, but the Hungarians expelled them during the Conquest.[76][78] On the other hand, Spinei, Pop and other historians write that Russian Primary Chronicle confirms Anonymus's report of the Hungarians' fight against the Vlachs.[79][page needed][39][80] Madgearu, who does not associate the Volokhi with the Vlachs, emphasizes that Anonymous "had no interest to invent the presence of the [Vlachs] in Transylvania in the 10th century, because if [Vlachs] had indeed arrived there in the 12th century, his readers would not have believed this assertion".[81] Györffy says that the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century.[82]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks

    Blacs are not Vlachs.Blacs were a tribe of the Karluk Turkic tribal confederacy.And Volokhi were actually Franks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sciencediver View Post
    Any idea why this map suggests Serbia was the Albanian homeland?
    As far as I know, Albanians originate from various populations indigenous to the Balkans, so they probably moved a bit around the peninsula over time, until being pushed to the edge by the Slavs who moved into the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

    The latter source described the Slavs as the first settlers in the Carpathian Basin and mentioned that they were conquered by the "Volokhi" before the Hungarians arrived and expelled the Volokhi.[76][77] According to Györffy, Kristó and other historians, Anonymus misinterpreted his source when identifying the Volokhi with the Vlachs, because the who occupied Pannonia, but the Hungarians expelled them during the Conquest.[76][78] On the other hand, Spinei, Pop and other historians write that Russian Primary Chronicle confirms Anonymus's report of the Hungarians' fight against the Vlachs.[79][page needed][39][80] Madgearu, who does not associate the Volokhi with the Vlachs, emphasizes that Anonymous "had no interest to invent the presence of the [Vlachs] in Transylvania in the 10th century, because if [Vlachs] had indeed arrived there in the 12th century, his readers would not have believed this assertion".[81] Györffy says that the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century.[82]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks

    Blacs are not Vlachs.Blacs were a tribe of the Karluk Turkic tribal confederacy.And Volokhi were actually Franks.


    I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum", Roman sheperds, at that time (as written in Gesta Hungarorum). Blach/Vlach is simply the name attributed to the latinised Balkan population by the foreigners, most notably Slavs.

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