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Thread: The Origin of Romanians (Vlachs)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post


    I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum", Roman sheperds, at that time (as written in Gesta Hungarorum). Blach/Vlach is simply the name attributed to the latinised Balkan population by the foreigners, most notably Slavs.
    ... the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century!!!


    I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum",

    Me too.

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  3. #22
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    Dorkymon


    How much evidence is there to support large migration from southern Balkans (Bulgaria) into Romania? If it was true then it'd explain genetic difference at autosomal DNA between Romanians and Moldovans (people of country of Moldova) with latter being notably more northern. On the other hand Romanians seem to plot closely to Bulgarians. Eurogenes K15 has samples for Romanian, Bulgarians and Moldavians.





    Last edited by Volat; 03-03-2016 at 12:45 AM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Dorkymon


    How much evidence is there to support large migration from southern Balkans (Bulgaria) into Romania? If it was true then it'd explain genetic difference at autosomal DNA between Romanians and Moldovans (people of country of Moldova) with latter being notably more northern. On the other hand Romanians seem to plot closely to Bulgarians. Eurogenes K15 has samples for Romanian, Bulgarians and Moldavians.





    Romanians from Eurogenes K15 are mainly samples from Southern Romania, who are obviously Bulgarian like. PuntDNAL K12 is more accurate in this regard.

    PuntDNAL K12
     

    # Population Percent
    1 European_HG 35.28
    2 Anatolian_NF 34.79
    3 Caucasus_HG 19.93
    4 Near_East 4.83
    5 Siberian 1.97
    6 Beringian 0.98
    7 East_Asian 0.98
    8 Oceanian 0.87
    9 Sub-Saharan 0.23
    10 Amerindian 0.12

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Romanian 2.39
    2 Croatian 4.51
    3 Belgian 6.15
    4 Dutch_South 6.9
    5 Utahn_European 7.51
    6 Hungarian 7.61
    7 Bulgarian 7.69
    8 German_South 7.75
    9 French 8.25
    10 English_South 9.2
    11 Irish 10.43
    12 Dutch_North 11.21
    13 Czech 11.45
    14 German_North 11.55
    15 Scottish_West 12.44
    16 Italian_Bergamo 12.9
    17 Albanian 13
    18 Norwegian 13.38
    19 Spanish_Northeast 14.32
    20 Spanish_Southwest 14.45

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 96.5% Romanian + 3.5% Altaian @ 1.03
    2 97.5% Romanian + 2.5% Yakut @ 1.09
    3 97% Romanian + 3% Tuvinian @ 1.1
    4 97.2% Romanian + 2.8% Dolgan @ 1.11
    5 95.8% Romanian + 4.2% Hazara @ 1.16


    Eurogenes K15
     
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 19.06
    2 Baltic 18.89
    3 Atlantic 13.92
    4 Eastern_Euro 11.9
    5 East_Med 11.88
    6 West_Med 10.85
    7 West_Asian 7.65
    8 Siberian 1.94
    9 Southeast_Asian 1.82
    10 Red_Sea 1.43
    11 South_Asian 0.41
    12 Oceanian 0.25

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Serbian 5.36
    2 Moldavian 5.72
    3 Romanian 6.55
    4 Hungarian 7.44
    5 Croatian 7.79
    6 Bulgarian 9.01
    7 Austrian 9.67
    8 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.37
    9 East_German 12.61
    10 South_Polish 13.25
    11 Ukrainian 13.31
    12 Greek_Thessaly 15.41
    13 Polish 16.02
    14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.66
    15 Russian_Smolensk 16.67
    16 Southwest_Russian 17.06
    17 Greek 17.08
    18 West_German 17.53
    19 South_Dutch 17.92
    20 Southwest_Finnish 18.04

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 56.8% Greek_Thessaly + 43.2% Estonian @ 2.72
    2 61.6% Ukrainian + 38.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.98
    3 66% Ukrainian + 34% South_Italian @ 3.01
    4 62.6% Ukrainian + 37.4% Central_Greek @ 3.02
    5 67.8% Bulgarian + 32.2% Finnish @ 3.07

  6. #24
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    As far I know the same large sample for Romanians released to public is used in published studies and personal projects. Here's a published study by Yunusbaev et al https://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/1/359.full

    PS Was there a migration from southern Balkans to Romania? It could happen given many Vlach shepherds were always moving in search of new pastures.


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    Phylogenetic network from Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers. Lejla Kovacevic et al. (2014).

    http://postimg.org/image/gmy0tuwz3/full/


    It appears most studies use the same Romanian sample. Either PuntDNAL has obtained a new sample or the results are skewed due to some counfounding factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Phylogenetic network from Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers. Lejla Kovacevic et al. (2014).

    http://postimg.org/image/gmy0tuwz3/full/


    It appears most studies use the same Romanian sample. Either PuntDNAL has obtained a new sample or the results are skewed due to some counfounding factors.
    And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

    On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

    Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

    On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

    Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .
    East Slavic tribes Tiverci and Ulichi lived in or around Moldova. Then continuous migration of Slavs into Moldova in the last 150 years. Religion was not an obstacle for intermarriages. That may explain Moldovan 'northernness' in relation to Romanians and the presence of M458 marker.
    Last edited by Volat; 03-03-2016 at 03:06 AM.

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    A high share of the Anatolian/southern Balkan stratum in the male pool of the southern Romanians and as a consequence their close genetic affinity with the autochthonous Balkan populations testify to a significant gene flow from the southern/central Balkans and thus support the migration concept of the origin of the Romanians (for review see Fedorov 1999). A considerable prevalence of the western Balkan component over the Anatolian one and a moderate share of the eastern European component in the pool of the eastern Romanians and the northern Moldavians may be attributable to the peopling of the eastern Transcarpathians from Transylvania and in this way is more consistent with the theory of the autochthonous (within the Carpathian Basin) development of the Romanians and the Moldavians. As we see, no theory (the migration one or that of the autochthonous development) explains completely the observed variability of the Y-chromosome in the gene pool of the Romanians and the Moldavians, but it does not confront with the observed variability either. The results of the study of the Y-chromosome polymorphism testify to the mixed origin of the male pool of the East Romanic population. It seems that probably the East Romanic expansion came from two distinct areas in the Medieval Ages. At the same time the Balkan Volokhs (the old-Romanian community) preferred to settle down on the lands, which were in close vicinity of the Balkans to the South of the Carpathians, whereas the Carpathian Volokhs settled down in the eastern Transcarpathians. The gene pools of at least some Moldavian groups, except the Balkan-Carpathian components, also included a considerable eastern European component that seems to be attributable to the involvement of settlers of Slavic origin. The presence of multiple Slavic elements in the spoken language and folklore of the Moldavians supports the interpretation that Slavs left significant imprint on the genesis of the present-day paternal pool of the Moldavians.
    https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5868..._Alexander.pdf
    R1b3-M269 is the third common haplogroup of the Romanians (13%) and it is found at the highest frequency in the central Balkans, which points to a significant gene flow from the Balkans (Varzari ‎2006). The Romanians also share E3b1-M78 (7.4%) with the Balkan populations and the European distribution of E3b1-M78 centers in parts of the Balkans (up to 50%).
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 03-03-2016 at 02:48 AM.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

    On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

    Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .

    The explanation is simple - the Vachs moving North absorbed what's left of the autochthonous population there. Their language prevailed the same way as Slavic prevailed South of the Danube. The Moldavians look more Northern as they inherited from the Ukranians and have also some East Asian inherited from the Tartars.
    The Romanian government tried very hard to assimilate minorities after the big 1918 territory expansion, in which it largely succeeded as they were Christians. Bulgarian government tried the same with near 0 success as the largest minorities in Bulgaria were Muslims (Turks and the local Turkish Roma, not counting the Pomaks, who are Bulgarians genetically).
    The genetics on the Balkans is changed gradually and does not match the geographical and language borders, see, for example "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns":
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00251.x/full

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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The explanation is simple - the Vachs moving North absorbed what's left of the autochthonous population there. Their language prevailed the same way as Slavic prevailed South of the Danube. The Moldavians look more Northern as they inherited from the Ukranians and have also some East Asian inherited from the Tartars.
    The Romanian government tried very hard to assimilate minorities after the big 1918 territory expansion, in which it largely succeeded as they were Christians. Bulgarian government tried the same with near 0 success as the largest minorities in Bulgaria were Muslims (Turks and the local Turkish Roma, not counting the Pomaks, who are Bulgarians genetically).
    The genetics on the Balkans is changed gradually and does not match the geographical and language borders, see, for example "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns":
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00251.x/full
    Yes, Eastara, I'm aware of that, and agree in part. But I'm not sure if it was quite that simple. At the moment, i haven't yet formulated a strong position either way, but do not see it as an impossibility that Romance languages continued to be spoken north of the Danube between 300 - 900 AD.

    The Romanian lands were populated in the Middle Ages. How do you suppose the entire country switched languages to speak Romanian ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 03-03-2016 at 07:20 AM.

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