Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

[Phoebe Watts]

If I just search for marriages with no names in "Llanfair Isgoed" on familysearch they start in the 17th century. I guess my Thomas (and/or Elizabeth) were from outside the parish because they don't show up in searches, although other Jones marriages do. It just seems that finding only one Thomas Jones marrying an Elizabeth in the whole of Monmouthshire between 1730 and 1775 points to disappointing gaps in what's available online. Still, I suppose I've been lucky to get back that far given the surname.

I haven’t been able to replicate those results - I’m seeing over 13,000 marriage/banns records between 1730 and 1770 with 6 relating to Thomas Jones with Elizabeth.

I had a look at Llanfair Discoed and the earliest marriage entries are from the register starting in 1795. It looks as if there are earlier registers that are not on findmypast.

I hope that helps.

I have been able to get back to the 1600s in findmypast registers for some of my lines - but others are quite limited.

[castle3]

Just a cautionary note for anyone studying Welsh pedigrees: Edward Williams, aka Iolo Morgannwg (1747-1826), was an infamous forger of Welsh pedigrees. I would urge anyone studying their lineage to research his impact on Welsh genealogy.

[JonikW]

I haven’t been able to replicate those results - I’m seeing over 13,000 marriage/banns records between 1730 and 1770 with 6 relating to Thomas Jones with Elizabeth.

I had a look at Llanfair Discoed and the earliest marriage entries are from the register starting in 1795. It looks as if there are earlier registers that are not on findmypast.

I hope that helps.

I have been able to get back to the 1600s in findmypast registers for some of my lines - but others are quite limited.

I appreciate that. Were the six on findmypast? I'll ask a distant cousin on that line to search if so.

[Phoebe Watts]

I appreciate that. Were the six on findmypast? I'll ask a distant cousin on that line to search if so.

Yes - those are the findmypast results yesterday. It should be worth making enquiries locally for the pre 1795 register entries for Llanfair lsgoed. I think there may be a transcription on sale too so you might be able to get someone to look it up for you.

[JonikW]

BBC is showing an enjoyable series called The Story of Wales, which is available on iPlayer. Much of it will be familiar, but I've had a some unexpected insights. Anyway, it's worth watching and Huw Edwards is a likeable presenter. Check it out if you can.
EDIT: Making clear there is more than one episode.

[msmarjoribanks]

BBC is showing an enjoyable series called The Story of Wales, which is available on iPlayer. Much of it will be familiar, but I've had a some unexpected insights. Anyway, it's worth watching and Huw Edwards is a likeable presenter. Check it out if you can.
EDIT: Making clear there is more than one episode.

I started that a while ago (I think I watched the first couple), need to get back to it!

I was actually coming over here to mention a show called Project Restoration. Description is: "Historical building surveyor Marianne Suhr tours the UK looking for the most exciting, unusual and traditional restoration projects. With her priceless advice for the owners and hands-on attitude, Marianne will be making repairs to crumbling castle walls, mixing up some building mud in her mission to give Britain's rich architectural heritage the treatment it deserves."

Episode 5 starts following a couple restoring a farm cottage in South Wales (the same episode includes a couple of other projects), and apparently it continues in subsequent episodes. The couple, who are architects, say that the cottage was originally tai unnos, and the description of the axe throwing sounded a bit like legend to me, but apparently not:

http://www.celticcottages.co.uk/

"The bulk of West Wales cottages which still survive were built during the 18th and 19th century, in response to the demand for additional housing between the middle of the eighteenth and the middle of the nineteenth century. This put a lot of pressure on the land which was available at the time. Use of the common land by means of the famous tai unnos or "One Night" became widespread.

The origins of tai unnos were; the dwelling could be built on common land, the builder had to complete the dwelling overnight. Smoke had to rise from the chimney by the morning, the builder then threw an axe from the front door of the cottage, and the distance he could throw the axe determined the boundary of the property. The cottage dweller then had time to build a more permanent dwelling to replace the original turf and thatch dwelling."

[Phoebe Watts]

I started that a while ago (I think I watched the first couple), need to get back to it!

I was actually coming over here to mention a show called Project Restoration. Description is: "Historical building surveyor Marianne Suhr tours the UK looking for the most exciting, unusual and traditional restoration projects. With her priceless advice for the owners and hands-on attitude, Marianne will be making repairs to crumbling castle walls, mixing up some building mud in her mission to give Britain's rich architectural heritage the treatment it deserves."

Episode 5 starts following a couple restoring a farm cottage in South Wales (the same episode includes a couple of other projects), and apparently it continues in subsequent episodes. The couple, who are architects, say that the cottage was originally tai unnos, and the description of the axe throwing sounded a bit like legend to me, but apparently not:

http://www.celticcottages.co.uk/

"The bulk of West Wales cottages which still survive were built during the 18th and 19th century, in response to the demand for additional housing between the middle of the eighteenth and the middle of the nineteenth century. This put a lot of pressure on the land which was available at the time. Use of the common land by means of the famous tai unnos or "One Night" became widespread.

The origins of tai unnos were; the dwelling could be built on common land, the builder had to complete the dwelling overnight. Smoke had to rise from the chimney by the morning, the builder then threw an axe from the front door of the cottage, and the distance he could throw the axe determined the boundary of the property. The cottage dweller then had time to build a more permanent dwelling to replace the original turf and thatch dwelling."

I have found a reference in my tree to what might be a ty unnos in the mid 1700s.

My 5x greatgrandfather was a shopkeeper living near the east coast of Anglesey. He seems to have brought his stock in by sea from Liverpool and made profits that he used to buy land. There are surviving legal papers relating to one of his purchases that turned sour and he tried to stop the deal because there was undisclosed development on the land. The suggestion there is that a cottage was built on undeveloped land that wasn’t common land. I’ll have to try to find out more.

[Phoebe Watts]

Just a cautionary note for anyone studying Welsh pedigrees: Edward Williams, aka Iolo Morgannwg (1747-1826), was an infamous forger of Welsh pedigrees. I would urge anyone studying their lineage to research his impact on Welsh genealogy.

I would suggest that anyone interested in Welsh history and culture should read up on Iolo Morganwg - “the most interesting Welshman ever” according to the publisher’s description for a recent biography. Here is a link to a project on Iolo: http://iolomorganwg.wales.ac.uk/index.php

I’m not aware of an accessible source on genealogical forgery but even for the 1800s an up to date guide to researching Welsh family history is a good starting point. There are resources on the National Library of Wales website too.

[rms2]

Don't want to be accused of cross posting, but I wanted to mention my own y-chromosome cluster, discovered by Rick Arnold and christened R1b-41-1123 by Mike Walsh before we knew it had a specific SNP that characterized it. It doesn't appear to be a large, widespread cluster. Over time the evidence has mounted that it is primarily confined to the old Welsh kingdom of Powys: mid-Wales and the Welsh Borders.

Well, the SNP that characterizes the R1b-41-1123 cluster is BY166, also known as Z18021, with a tmrca that takes us back to about 1450 AD, before surnames became fixed among the Welsh, which explains the relatively close STR matches in our cluster among men with a number of different surnames. Well, yesterday I was able to add another surname to our growing list: Lloyd. A man with that surname whose y-dna ancestor is John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from old Radnorshire, Wales, emailed me because he got an R-Z18021 y-dna test result from 23andMe. He googled Z18021 and came across the R1b-41-1123 web site. (Good thing I have alternate SNP names listed as "surnames" on the project web site; otherwise this gentleman never would have found us.)

Now I'm trying to convince Mr. Lloyd to test with FTDNA so he can join our project. I was really pleased to hear from him, in part because it is further confirmation of the Welshness of the cluster, and also because it's neat that 23andMe might prove to be another source from which we can acquire more knowledge about it.

BY166 Surname Maps.png

The places outside Wales and far western England for a couple of surnames pictured above aren't likely to be the true places of origin for our members bearing those names. I'd like to explain, but privacy considerations restrain me from saying more.

[JonikW]

Don't want to be accused of cross posting, but I wanted to mention my own y-chromosome cluster, discovered by Rick Arnold and christened R1b-41-1123 by Mike Walsh before we knew it had a specific SNP that characterized it. It doesn't appear to be a large, widespread cluster. Over time the evidence has mounted that it is primarily confined to the old Welsh kingdom of Powys: mid-Wales and the Welsh Borders.

Well, the SNP that characterizes the R1b-41-1123 cluster is BY166, also known as Z18021, with a tmrca that takes us back to about 1450 AD, before surnames became fixed among the Welsh, which explains the relatively close STR matches in our cluster among men with a number of different surnames. Well, yesterday I was able to add another surname to our growing list: Lloyd. A man with that surname whose y-dna ancestor is John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from old Radnorshire, Wales, emailed me because he got an R-Z18021 y-dna test result from 23andMe. He googled Z18021 and came across the R1b-41-1123 web site. (Good thing I have alternate SNP names listed as "surnames" on the project web site; otherwise this gentleman never would have found us.)

Now I'm trying to convince Mr. Lloyd to test with FTDNA so he can join our project. I was really pleased to hear from him, in part because it is further confirmation of the Welshness of the cluster, and also because it's neat that 23andMe might prove to be another source from which we can acquire more knowledge about it.

BY166 Surname Maps.png

The places outside Wales and far western England for a couple of surnames pictured above aren't likely to be the true places of origin for our members bearing those names. I'd like to explain, but privacy considerations restrain me from saying more.

Nice work and a beautifully mapped site that is an example to us all. Interesting that Lloyd is firmly in Powys, and I can imagine the journeys of others who left Wales. I'm also really pleased to see the detail that 23andme is giving these days. They've just started selling in a big UK pharmacy chain, Boots, so hopefully you'll be adding to that Welsh database soon.