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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #101
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    Yes of course. You will know that traditional Welsh names like Hywel and Llywelyn formed surnames in the borders and parts of the south where surnames were adopted early. By the time surnames were adopted in the north-west those names had fallen out of use. It seems that the clerics used to register Hywel as Hugh; Llywelyn as Lewis. So Hughes and Lewis are more common surnames in the north-west.

    I have been using the surname distribution statistics and maps in "the Surnames of Wales" as a guide. I found some my less common surnames: Watts, Mathias and Cunnick exactly as the book said.

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  3. #102
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    I hadn't realized Bowen was so localized (quick look at a surname map). I suppose I was lucky it was!

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    Yes of course. You will know that traditional Welsh names like Hywel and Llywelyn formed surnames in the borders and parts of the south where surnames were adopted early. By the time surnames were adopted in the north-west those names had fallen out of use. It seems that the clerics used to register Hywel as Hugh; Llywelyn as Lewis. So Hughes and Lewis are more common surnames in the north-west.

    I have been using the surname distribution statistics and maps in "the Surnames of Wales" as a guide. I found some my less common surnames: Watts, Mathias and Cunnick exactly as the book said.
    Howells is quite common in Monmouthshire but it's also common in Gloucestershire or rather the Howell version is, more so than Howells. It's possible Howell in that part of the World comes from Breton (Hoel) rather than Welsh influence.
    Actually there seems to be a pocket of Howells in East Anglia and my guess is that it relates to the Breton presence and influence there. Of course a name can also reflect local culture/fashion as well as ancestry.
    This is from a Manorial Court just over the border into Herefordshire where my paternal ancestors lived. Apparently they were still using the Welsh patronymic system fairly widely after 1550 but it had pretty much gone by 1650 but this was an area closely linked to Wales.

    " About 1466

    "Wyrkebroke

    A court of Elizabeth Delahay there held upon Tuesday next after the feast of St Nicholas in the fifth year of the reign of king Edward the fourth after the conquest.

    Jurors

    John Regnald

    Walter ap Hoell

    David Webb

    Hugh Yate

    John ap Hoell

    David Wylot "
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 01-16-2018 at 07:04 AM.

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  7. #104
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    Yes, it is interesting how some Welsh names are quite localised. In my own family tree I have the common widespread ones such as Jones and Williams but there are others which tend to predominate more in North Wales such as Hughes and Parry and then you have ones like Roberts and Ellis which are almost unheard of in the south.

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  9. #105
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    Yes, those areas just east of the border are a good place to find interesting patronymics as well as old names preserved as surnames.

    A map showing the reduction in the use of patronymics over time suggests it happened slightly later in Western Herefordshire than in some parts of Wales. The custom lasted longest in the north-west.

    My eight Anglesey 3xgreat grandparents were all born between 1785 and 1810. At least three used patronyms. Three of the others were of the first generation to adopt their father's patronym as a "surname". Only one had a longstanding surname. Her ancestor several generations earlier had been land agent to one of the local estates and had adopted their customs.

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  11. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    Yes, those areas just east of the border are a good place to find interesting patronymics as well as old names preserved as surnames.

    A map showing the reduction in the use of patronymics over time suggests it happened slightly later in Western Herefordshire than in some parts of Wales. The custom lasted longest in the north-west.

    My eight Anglesey 3xgreat grandparents were all born between 1785 and 1810. At least three used patronyms. Three of the others were of the first generation to adopt their father's patronym as a "surname". Only one had a longstanding surname. Her ancestor several generations earlier had been land agent to one of the local estates and had adopted their customs.
    I understand West Herefordshire particularly Ewyas Lacy in the shadow of the Black Mountains was very isolated, both from the rest of Herefordshire and Wales, poor roads and so on , virtually impassible in Winter. Apparently even the Romans didn't make it there. Of course it opened up in the 19th Century with the railways and road improvements.

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  13. #107
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    This is an interesting and I thought slightly funny one from the same period because a juror and the offender are probably related :-
    Jurors

    John ap Hoell gent.

    David Wylot

    Hugh Yate

    David Webbe

    David ap Lewis

    Under the above





    Thomas Wylot made default at this court.

    Also they present that Marrgaret ap Hoell Seys did the same .

    Also they present that goats are kept there by the said lady contrary to the statute.

    Also Mathew Taylor for keeping goats."

    The goat lady carries the description Seys (Sais) which is sometimes described as Welsh for Saxon but perhaps might apply to anyone of "foreign" or strange origins.
    One of the more noteable pedigrees which has this usage is of David or Davy Gam of Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and was killed there supposedly defending the King - "Dafydd Gam ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Einion Sais" - Einion Seis being the relevant ancestor.
    Of course I can't help wondering if I may have a connection to the 15th Century "Hoells". I believe one of their number was the Reeve of Ewyas Lacy Castle. There was a "John Howells Gent." who was a juror on the same manorial court in the 1700's. Probably no way of knowing for sure because of the change in naming system.

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  15. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post

    The goat lady carries the description Seys (Sais) which is sometimes described as Welsh for Saxon but perhaps might apply to anyone of "foreign" or strange origins.
    One of the more noteable pedigrees which has this usage is of David or Davy Gam of Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and was killed there supposedly defending the King - "Dafydd Gam ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Einion Sais" - Einion Seis being the relevant ancestor.
    Of course I can't help wondering if I may have a connection to the 15th Century "Hoells". I believe one of their number was the Reeve of Ewyas Lacy Castle. There was a "John Howells Gent." who was a juror on the same manorial court in the 1700's. Probably no way of knowing for sure because of the change in naming system.
    Or as they have obviously Welsh forenames, someone who spoke English or who had lived in "England"?

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  17. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    Or as they have obviously Welsh forenames, someone who spoke English or who had lived in "England"?
    Difficult to know. Of course here you have a Welsh, Early English and Norman (of various sorts) mix.
    Someone whose ancestors maybe arrived in 1066 or around that period or earlier might be pretty assimilated 400 years later, inter-marriage and so on.
    It could though just mean someone "anglicised" maybe brought up in England or with an English education possibly as a sort of slightly insulting nickname. "Gam" as in Davy Gam was a nickname meaning lame it wasn't his real name.

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  19. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Howells is quite common in Monmouthshire but it's also common in Gloucestershire or rather the Howell version is, more so than Howells. It's possible Howell in that part of the World comes from Breton (Hoel) rather than Welsh influence.
    Actually there seems to be a pocket of Howells in East Anglia and my guess is that it relates to the Breton presence and influence there. Of course a name can also reflect local culture/fashion as well as ancestry.
    This is from a Manorial Court just over the border into Herefordshire where my paternal ancestors lived. Apparently they were still using the Welsh patronymic system fairly widely after 1550 but it had pretty much gone by 1650 but this was an area closely linked to Wales.

    " About 1466

    "Wyrkebroke

    A court of Elizabeth Delahay there held upon Tuesday next after the feast of St Nicholas in the fifth year of the reign of king Edward the fourth after the conquest.

    Jurors

    John Regnald

    Walter ap Hoell

    David Webb

    Hugh Yate

    John ap Hoell

    David Wylot "
    Webb? Very interesting.

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