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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Good luck with those middle names.
    Some of the censuses had specific instructions to leave out middle names.
    Somehow if you could read and also if you were well off, this was not applied too strictly, but my poor with limited literacy and limited means are sometimes impossible to distinguish from others because of this. Especially if they were working away from home in 1841.
    I hadn't seen leaving middle names out of the census as a problem but I might go back to some brick walls with that in mind.

    I first see a very few middle names in the baptisms in the 1830s (<10%)
    There are more from the 1860s baptisms (<30%)
    And in significant numbers by the 1880s.

    I can't find a formal analysis but just looking at probate records from the 1930s say, where the expectation was to give a full name, the majority of the Welsh names in Wales are still just forename and surname.

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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    I hadn't seen leaving middle names out of the census as a problem but I might go back to some brick walls with that in mind.

    I first see a very few middle names in the baptisms in the 1830s (<10%)
    There are more from the 1860s baptisms (<30%)
    And in significant numbers by the 1880s.

    I can't find a formal analysis but just looking at probate records from the 1930s say, where the expectation was to give a full name, the majority of the Welsh names in Wales are still just forename and surname.
    Perhaps my family isn't typical but there are lots of middle names in mine just before and after 1900.
    On the paternal side:-
    John Oswald ( my father)
    Teilo Lloyd
    Wilfred Illtud
    Augustine David
    Gwendoline Emma

    Maternal :-
    Elsie May (my mother)
    Clara Beryl
    Philip Henry
    Clarence Gerard
    (others I don't know)

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  5. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Perhaps my family isn't typical but there are lots of middle names in mine just before and after 1900.
    On the paternal side:-
    John Oswald ( my father)
    Teilo Lloyd
    Wilfred Illtud
    Augustine David
    Gwendoline Emma

    Maternal :-
    Elsie May (my mother)
    Clara Beryl
    Philip Henry
    Clarence Gerard
    (others I don't know)

    Having been conservative and bland for a long time Welsh names became very varied from the 1880s.

    The Teilo and Illtyd in your list seem to reflect a theme of heroes in boys names.

    In North Wales there is Arthur, Glyndwr, Llywelyn...; Also names based on places: Meirion, Arfon, Emlyn, Eifion...

    There seems to have been more confidence in the South. As well as historic Welsh leaders and saints there were all those names that aren't Welsh but which seem to be more used here: Haydn, Handel, Byron, Milton...

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  7. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    Having been conservative and bland for a long time Welsh names became very varied from the 1880s.

    The Teilo and Illtyd in your list seem to reflect a theme of heroes in boys names.

    In North Wales there is Arthur, Glyndwr, Llywelyn...; Also names based on places: Meirion, Arfon, Emlyn, Eifion...

    There seems to have been more confidence in the South. As well as historic Welsh leaders and saints there were all those names that aren't Welsh but which seem to be more used here: Haydn, Handel, Byron, Milton...
    I didn't know my father's family very well, he died when I was young. My mother suggested they were catholics at one time (she may have been wrong about that). I thought they might be Saints' names.

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  9. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I didn't know my father's family very well, he died when I was young. My mother suggested they were catholics at one time (she may have been wrong about that). I thought they might be Saints' names.
    Yes that fits well doesn't it. I hadn't recognised Oswald as being a saint's name. It is interesting that there is a good mix from the Celtic and Anglo Saxon traditions.

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  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    Yes that fits well doesn't it. I hadn't recognised Oswald as being a saint's name. It is interesting that there is a good mix from the Celtic and Anglo Saxon traditions.
    They were from Herefordshire but very close to the border. Monumental masons in the family, involved in Church restoration. My grandfather and his brother worked on Patricio Church in the early 1900's where my great grandfather is buried. Sorry if I've shared this before.

    grandfather 1.jpg

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  13. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    They were from Herefordshire but very close to the border. Monumental masons in the family, involved in Church restoration. My grandfather and his brother worked on Patricio Church in the early 1900's where my great grandfather is buried. Sorry if I've shared this before.

    grandfather 1.jpg
    Very cool, Celtic Cross.
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  15. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Very cool, Celtic Cross.
    Carved by my grandfather I think Stephen. I thought there might be a bit of Anglo Saxon or even Norse influence going on at the bottom.
    Kilpeck Church in West Herefordshire is a strange mix of styles.

    640px-Kilpeck_Details_of_Door_Arch.jpg
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 01-29-2018 at 05:03 PM.

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  17. #189
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    The recent Irish DNA atlas got me thinking again about how Wales really needs a good, detailed genetic survey. All we really have is POBI which although good, could be more refined and more insightful about Welsh history with more sampling.

    It's only when you look at a close up of the POBI map that you see the gaps - 0 samples in Powys, only 10 from Denbighshire and Flintshire. The sampling was good from Anglesey because POBI went to an Agricultural show there but in North Wales I would like to have seen more samples from Snowdonia and from Llyn. It looks like they got a handful from around Porthmadog but generally speaking there aren't many from Meirionnydd, which is one of the remoter parts of Wales. And again there are big gaps in sampling from central Wales.

    I will say though, that I think POBI broadly got it right - Wales can broadly be split into a North Wales cluster, a SW Wales one and a Welsh Borders cluster, which itself can be split into North Wales Border and South Wales Border.

    I'm probably repeating myself but although Wales is a small country, the physical landscape lends itself to genetic variation and isolation. We know for example from POBI that there is more genetic variation within Pembrokeshire alone than there is from pretty much most of England. With even more sampling from Wales we could identify even greater population structure, imo.

    It reminds me of an amusing anecdote I once read about a Welsh poet Nesta Wyn Jones from Trawsfynydd, whose family were still regarded as outsiders having moved from Bala, which is only 12 miles away, 300 years previously!

    wales pobi.jpg

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  19. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    The recent Irish DNA atlas got me thinking again about how Wales really needs a good, detailed genetic survey. All we really have is POBI which although good, could be more refined and more insightful about Welsh history with more sampling.

    It's only when you look at a close up of the POBI map that you see the gaps - 0 samples in Powys, only 10 from Denbighshire and Flintshire. The sampling was good from Anglesey because POBI went to an Agricultural show there but in North Wales I would like to have seen more samples from Snowdonia and from Llyn. It looks like they got a handful from around Porthmadog but generally speaking there aren't many from Meirionnydd, which is one of the remoter parts of Wales. And again there are big gaps in sampling from central Wales.

    I will say though, that I think POBI broadly got it right - Wales can broadly be split into a North Wales cluster, a SW Wales one and a Welsh Borders cluster, which itself can be split into North Wales Border and South Wales Border.

    I'm probably repeating myself but although Wales is a small country, the physical landscape lends itself to genetic variation and isolation. We know for example from POBI that there is more genetic variation within Pembrokeshire alone than there is from pretty much most of England. With even more sampling from Wales we could identify even greater population structure, imo.

    It reminds me of an amusing anecdote I once read about a Welsh poet Nesta Wyn Jones from Trawsfynydd, whose family were still regarded as outsiders having moved from Bala, which is only 12 miles away, 300 years previously!

    wales pobi.jpg
    It would be good to know more about the DNA of the communities in the gaps, especially the most isolated areas.

    In the context of the Irish studies, it does strike me that the heavily sampled areas of Anglesey and Pembrokeshire are coastal and close to Ireland. Would the Norse and Irish influence still be visible in the DNA there I wonder. And be different from inland/ upland areas?

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