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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #421
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    I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.
    Last edited by JonikW; 08-05-2018 at 09:31 PM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  3. #422
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    Does anyone know what the best YDNA sampling for Wales is, if there's a study published? I know about the maps at Eupedia and this chart: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/bri...dna.shtml#maps, but was just wondering if there was anything more.

    Also, has there ever been a publication about mtDNA in the British Isles (including Wales)? I expect mtDNA is too diffuse, at least at the U/H/K/T level they usually give, to show any differences, but figured I'd ask.

    On other news, my effort to find a link with my distant Welsh cousin has not yet been successful. One thing I noticed is that his lines go to the following places (dates are birth places of earliest known ancestor): 1800 Ruabon, Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1895 Ruabon (same), 1828 Shropshire (English surname), 1860 Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1858 Brymbo (Welsh surname), and a few unknown female lines. While I have been assuming these link to one of my Welsh lines moving out of Llangadfan, Montgomershire, or Trefriw, Caernarvonshire, looking at it again makes me wonder if it could be a connection with the Shropshire side of my family moving into Wales.

    In any case, I have to go back a couple of generations prior to the immigrant ancestors, I think, which means pre census, and with his the common names make tracing backwards hard (as I know those experienced with Welsh research can understand).

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  5. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.
    Ha! I was just posting in part for the same reason, because I'd love for the thread to get started again.

    Can't help with a royal connection, but I'd love to know what haplogroups we think they are (if there has been any good information gathered). As I mentioned on another thread, I moved not terribly long ago and so have had an excuse to organize books and keep finding books I had forgotten I had, one of which is called Welsh Kings: Warriors, Warlords, and Princes. What I had not noticed before is that it's by someone named Maund (lecturer at Cardiff University), and one of my Shropshire family names is Maund (the name is supposed to be from Herefordshire). Wonder the author and I are distant relatives (even if not to the kings).

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  7. #424
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    A month of no posts on this thread and then two together within minutes. Re the last, I'd be interested in any mtDNA info in particular. I'd like to save up and test my line at FTDNA one day. Think I'd better hold off for a bit for the sake of harmony at home.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  9. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.
    I share a paternal ancestor with the Cecils / Saissil (Lord Burghley) around 1300AD. The family were from the Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border.
    Only problem is the early origins of the Cecils before the Tudor period are unclear, their rise appears to have started with David Cecil, Burghley's grandfather having supported Henry VII and probably fought for him at Bosworth. Lord Burghley was mocked for his relatively humble origins and went to great lengths to have a pedigree prepared with showed his connections to various "noble" lines but these are regarded, I think, as very dubious. Undoubtedly they married into "noble" families but of course my paternal line connection was prior to this.
    The following suggesting descent from a Robert Sitsyllt the founder of the family is regarded by historians as unreliable because it isn't supported by independent documentation. Through DNA test we recently found a Scandinavian connection but currently this appears to be as a result of migration from Britain to Scandinavia around or before 1300 AD (we are U106 Z326). So, at the moment we don't really know when this U106 line first arrived in Britain. From what is known about our DNA testers' UK origins, at the moment these seem to cluster near the Welsh border.

    "The claim that this distinguished English political family is of Welsh origin calls for some clarification. The ancestral name, which appears in the family pedigrees as ‘Sitsyllt’ and was softened down to ‘Sissild,’ ‘Cyssel,’ ‘Cecild,’ and ‘Cecil’ in the course of the 15th and 16th cent. , is presumably the Welsh Seisyll; but the founder of the family, ROBERT SITSYLTT , first appears in history as a follower of the Norman Robert Fitzhamon (see under Robert of Gloucester ) in his conquest of the lordship of Glamorgan in the 11th cent. ; he acquired the family seat of Allt-yr-ynys (now in Herefords. , though the estate extends into Mon. ) by marriage into the family of the dispossessed Welsh owners. From this time on the ‘Sitsyllts’ generally married into Norman families and are frequently found fighting against the Welsh . Towards the end of the 15th cent. , however, RICHARD CECIL , the first to use the modern form of the name, m. into the Brecknock family of Vaughan of Tyle-glas . His younger son DAVID CECIL (d. 1541 ) migrated, with some of his Brecknock ‘cousins,’ to Northamptonshire , where he entered the service of Henry VII , became a Yeoman of the Chamber , 1507 , acquired the stewardship of several Crown manors , and served as sheriff of Northampton in 1529-30 ."

    There was a Saissil or Sassil who held lands in West Herefordshire during the time of the Domesday Book. PASE Doomsday suggests he could have been a Welsh ally of Harold Godwinson. The Cecil pedigree (almost certainly unreliable) claims descent from an Owen from the time of Godwinson and a Seisyllt at the time of William Rufus. Quite a few Welsh surnames are included in our paternal line as well as some English. Most sources suggest the name Saissil comes from the latin Caecillius or Sextus and this surname seems to be heavily concentrated near the Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border. I do wonder whether there is an outside possibility of a Romano British origin ?There were at least some "Germanics" serving near the Welsh border. A Roman burial inscription found at Cirencester, not too far away reads:-

    "The inscription reads: Sextus Valerius Genialis, trooper of the (first) cavalry regiment of Thracians, a Frisian tribesman, in the troop of Genialis, aged 40, of 20 years service, lies buried here. His heir had this set up."

    So for the moment the early Cecil origins remain a bit of a mystery. We are hoping of course further DNA results and matches may eventually shed more light on this. Sorry for the long ramble.

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  11. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.
    Ifor Bach is on the lists of what Peter C Bartrum, an expert on medieval Welsh genealogy, called tribal patriarchs. Ideo Wyllt discussed on here recenty is another. Bartrum lists about seventy of them and describes them as common ancestors of the important Welsh families of the fifteenth and sixteenth century. In north Wales in particular you can see five "royal" tribes, descendants of Gruffudd ap Cynan, Rhys ap Tewdwr, Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Elystan Glodrudd, and Caradog ab Iestyn. And fifteen tribes including Hwfa ap Cynddelw, Collwyn ap Tangno, Llywarch ap Bran etc.

    Lots of ordinary people can link back to these patriarchs and it woud have been quite common knowledge up until quite recently. If you can get back to the "county" pedigrees you are soon back into the visitations and the traditional pedigrees and perhaps to the semi-mythical names of the fifth and sixth century. Lots of pinches of salt needed... One great-grandfather, and a few second and third great-grandparents appear in the county pedigrees and through them I can trace back to Gruffudd ap Cynan and to many of the north Wales tribes.

    My favourite entry in the pedigrees is the very distant great-grandmother who is said to have been wet-nurse of Edward II.

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  13. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.
    According to what looks like a reliable source (but I have not examined this seriously), one of my Cornish lines goes back to a Norman invader Ralph/Raoul BLOUET who married a Nest something. No idea who she was, but one of their grandsons, Ralph III is supposed to have married (mid 1100s) a Nesta verch Iowerth who is supposed to descend from King Owain Deheubarth (Hywel) ap Hywell born around 913.
    This information may or may not be correct. I don't know. But it does come from people who have not made obvious mistakes, so maybe.

    My present focus on this line is more on what was happening around 1500 in Cornwall.
    Last edited by Saetro; 08-06-2018 at 08:02 PM.

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  15. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    Does anyone know what the best YDNA sampling for Wales is, if there's a study published? I know about the maps at Eupedia and this chart: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/bri...dna.shtml#maps, but was just wondering if there was anything more.

    Also, has there ever been a publication about mtDNA in the British Isles (including Wales)? I expect mtDNA is too diffuse, at least at the U/H/K/T level they usually give, to show any differences, but figured I'd ask.

    On other news, my effort to find a link with my distant Welsh cousin has not yet been successful. One thing I noticed is that his lines go to the following places (dates are birth places of earliest known ancestor): 1800 Ruabon, Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1895 Ruabon (same), 1828 Shropshire (English surname), 1860 Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1858 Brymbo (Welsh surname), and a few unknown female lines. While I have been assuming these link to one of my Welsh lines moving out of Llangadfan, Montgomershire, or Trefriw, Caernarvonshire, looking at it again makes me wonder if it could be a connection with the Shropshire side of my family moving into Wales.

    In any case, I have to go back a couple of generations prior to the immigrant ancestors, I think, which means pre census, and with his the common names make tracing backwards hard (as I know those experienced with Welsh research can understand).
    I'm afraid I don't know of any detailed studies on Welsh DNA. A while back someone posted about a forthcoming DNA study but no details were given and and I haven't heard anymore about it.
    It is something that is really needed, particularly more detailed analysis in finer detail. There is a Welsh DNA Project on Facebook but I don't think anyone is doing any serious analysis there.
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 08-07-2018 at 06:10 AM. Reason: afterthought

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  17. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    According to what looks like a reliable source (but I have not examined this seriously), one of my Cornish lines goes back to a Norman invader Ralph/Raoul BLOUET who married a Nest something. No idea who she was, but one of their grandsons, Ralph III is supposed to have married (mid 1100s) a Nesta verch Iowerth who is supposed to descend from King Owain Deheubarth (Hywel) ap Hywell born around 913.
    This information may or may not be correct. I don't know. But it does come from people who have not made obvious mistakes, so maybe.

    My present focus on this line is more on what was happening around 1500 in Cornwall.
    Your Nest was quite famous! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_Bloet

    Thank you for the reminder that the Anglo Norman families who were in South Wales and Ireland were also in Cornwall.

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  19. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I'm afraid I don't know of any detailed studies on Welsh DNA. A while back someone posted about a forthcoming DNA study but no details were given and and I haven't heard anymore about it.
    It is something that is really needed, particularly more detailed analysis in finer detail. There is a Welsh DNA Project on Facebook but I don't think anyone is doing any serious analysis there.
    Thanks. I was afraid that was likely true, that there wasn't really anything.

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