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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Even though the ph and v variants of Stephens/Stevens are often used interchangeably, there does seem to be a difference in their frequency and distribution in Britain.

    Attachment 27966 Attachment 27968

    Since my matches who can trace their ancestry across the Pond are all Welsh, and my haplotype cluster is predominantly Welsh, the Stephens distribution appears to be the more accurate of the two for my line.
    That’s right. The Stevens form is very uncommon in Wales. It is at least partly because the Welsh pronounciation is “ph” rather than”v”. The modern spelling is Steffan.

    The glossary of surnames on my bookshelf quotes Guppy in 1890 saying ‘Stephens is particularly characteristic of Cornwall and of the counties on or near the Welsh border and also South Wales itself’.

    I haven’t found either form in my family but Stephens is more a name of the old englishry of the marches and the south coast, rather than my more western and rural areas.

    It is interesting that many of the Stephens who emigrated became Stevens - quite like my Davies relatives whose name was standardised to Davis in north America.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  3. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    . . .

    I haven’t found either form in my family but Stephens is more a name of the old englishry of the marches and the south coast, rather than my more western and rural areas.
    . . .
    That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

    Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

    Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-30-2018 at 03:50 PM.

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  5. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

    Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

    Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.
    What was your favourite place you visited on your Welsh travels?
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  7. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    What was your favourite place you visited on your Welsh travels?
    Honestly, I enjoyed the pubs more than anything else. The beer in Wales is so superior to anything we get here it was like heaven to me. I loved the pub grub, especially the meat pies.

    Probably my favorite place was the pub at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells. I also really liked the Lamb and Flag in Rhayader and the Goat Major in Cardiff right across the street from Cardiff Castle. The pub in the Lion Hotel in Llanbister was also great, with the added attraction of the great conversations I had with the owner, Ray Thomas, who is a very knowledgeable local historian, as well as an innkeeper.

    The feeding of the red kites in Rhayader was a lot of fun, as was just driving all around Wales.

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  9. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Honestly, I enjoyed the pubs more than anything else. The beer in Wales is so superior to anything we get here it was like heaven to me. I loved the pub grub, especially the meat pies.

    Probably my favorite place was the pub at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells. I also really liked the Lamb and Flag in Rhayader and the Goat Major in Cardiff right across the street from Cardiff Castle. The pub in the Lion Hotel in Llanbister was also great, with the added attraction of the great conversations I had with the owner, Ray Thomas, who is a very knowledgeable local historian, as well as an innkeeper.

    The feeding of the red kites in Rhayader was a lot of fun, as was just driving all around Wales.
    I'm with you on the joys of a pie and a pint, and good pubs are an essential part of any trip for me. There are some great ales in Wales now; even better than in the old days. Thanks for the pubs list too.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  11. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

    Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

    Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.

    It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

    The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  13. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

    The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.
    Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  15. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

    The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.
    Yeah, but not English. If we were, our y-chromosome test results would be far different.

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  17. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.
    Exactly. I may have posted this in this thread already, but here are distribution maps for the surnames in my haplotype cluster, with the characteristic SNP BY166.

    R1b-BY166 surnames maps.jpg

    I left room for new arrivals.

    I wish I could explain the reasons why the surnames that appear to be distributed outside Wales and far western England aren't accurate for our lot, but the current legalistic mania for privacy prevents me from doing so. You'll have to take my word for it: ours is a Welsh cluster.

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  19. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.
    You are right. The majority of the population was still mostly Welsh in ancestry, apart from the deliberate settlements and some of the towns.

    These were Welsh communities or families who gradually adopted English customs and language.

    Most relevant for genealogy perhaps is the adoption of surnames (or the erosion of the patronymic). The Surnames of Wales (John and Sheila Rowlands) has a table showing the date of erosion of the patronymic to 10% in each hundred. In “my” hundreds in north Wales the date is in the 1840s and 1850s. In “my” south Wales hundreds it is 50 or so years earlier. In the hundreds where Stephens was most common that date is about 1650-1710; even earlier in Pembrokeshire.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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