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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #581
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    Could be worse, could be Jones! ;-) That's why I'd like to do some YDNA of my less common surnames (although none of them are likely to be Welsh, given the patronymic pattern).

    In case it was unclear, I meant I doubt my match with the newly-discovered match is on the Stevens line, as I know where in my family that match should be located.

    Re: Jones/patronymics, I've mentioned this before, but the vast majority of people in the US who share the surname of my Swedish line seem to be related to us, and it's not very common at all (Westerlin). In researching it, I learned that it was changed at the time they came over. Original name? Johansson.

    However, in that case I didn't have to worry about sorting out all the other Johanssons, since his dad was Petersson, and his dad was Magnusson, a different confusion.

    My mother's maiden name and both my grandmothers' are much less common, so it's caused me to be somewhat more focused on those families, and is why my Davis family has been neglected -- I have to deal with enough Joneses that when I run into a Davis or Smith or Miller, I tend to put them on the back-burner.
    Last edited by msmarjoribanks; 01-02-2019 at 05:52 PM.

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  3. #582
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    On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

    http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_artic...9_Rowlands.pdf

    Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

    Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

    Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

    And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  5. #583
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    untitled.png

    Screenshot of my Great Grandmother's surname. The last name is Tribby, which is a spelling that is particular to the United States. The search is under the correct spelling, Treby.

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  7. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

    http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_artic...9_Rowlands.pdf

    Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

    Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

    Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

    And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.

    I hear Welsh surnames when the 6 nations tournament arrives.
    no less than 5 Davies and 2 Jones in your team.
    I also heard Iestyn Davies, the famous counter-tenor in a small chapel near my home.

    In the Breton region, we have typically Breton names totally different from the French ones (the most common name in French is Martin)
    but sometimes, the administration has corrected the Breton names to make them ring French (placenames also)

    The name Milin for example (melan in Welsh) becoming Le Milinaire

    Is it the same in Wales?
    no name like Llewelyn ap Dafydd ab Ieuan ap Gruffudd ap Meredydd anymore?

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  9. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

    http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_artic...9_Rowlands.pdf

    Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

    Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

    Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

    And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.
    This is great! I wish I noticed this post sooner, before I went googling all those surnames for the other thread.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

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  11. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trelvern View Post
    I hear Welsh surnames when the 6 nations tournament arrives.
    no less than 5 Davies and 2 Jones in your team.
    I also heard Iestyn Davies, the famous counter-tenor in a small chapel near my home.

    In the Breton region, we have typically Breton names totally different from the French ones (the most common name in French is Martin)
    but sometimes, the administration has corrected the Breton names to make them ring French (placenames also)

    The name Milin for example (melan in Welsh) becoming Le Milinaire

    Is it the same in Wales?
    no name like Llewelyn ap Dafydd ab Ieuan ap Gruffudd ap Meredydd anymore?
    Yes and no... The government doesn’t prohibit names in the same way as can sometimes happen in France for Breton names. But I think the church used to do that a long time ago. And those those long names were important under Welsh laws so they died out a long time ago.

    Occupation names and nicknames survived as surnames on both sides of the border and in some place that were occupied by the Normans. I think melin/ melinydd was a rare name. Saer (carpenter) still exists.

    In most of Wales, most of the people shared the same common surnames so in a small town or village we know people by their farm or house name or an occupation name or another family name. As you say, rugby teams can sound very Welsh - especially local teams.

    I suppose surnames don’t really mean that much here!
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  13. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    This is great! I wish I noticed this post sooner, before I went googling all those surnames for the other thread.

    It is good isn’t it? It can be really useful. You really can place ancestors based on surnames, forenames or the pattern of forenames given to children.

    All your list of Welsh names are quite common though... I suppose it is likely that your ancestors were originally from west Wales but probably not from south Pembrokeshire.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  15. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    It is good isn’t it? It can be really useful. You really can place ancestors based on surnames, forenames or the pattern of forenames given to children.

    All your list of Welsh names are quite common though... I suppose it is likely that your ancestors were originally from west Wales but probably not from south Pembrokeshire.
    It is good! Yep all those names are very common. The common names are partially the reason why I ignored this part of my 23andme results. I figured something was wrong with them as again I have no oral history of having ancestry from the UK. Just some far back colonial lines that I figured must have come from there.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

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  17. #589
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    I must admit that reading it was a revelation to me. I had no idea it was possible to narrow down origins based on a couple of Welsh names. I was fascinated by the Jones map and would like to have seen something similar for Watkins on my father's Lewis side. They were Welsh speakers from Llanigon/Llanwenarth in Breconshire, which seems to be the hotspot for that name.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  19. #590
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I must admit that reading it was a revelation to me. I had no idea it was possible to narrow down origins based on a couple of Welsh names. I was fascinated by the Jones map and would like to have seen something similar for Watkins on my father's Lewis side. They were Welsh speakers from Llanigon/Llanwenarth in Breconshire, which seems to be the hotspot for that name.
    There is a map for Watkins in the book - still under copyright. Watkins is a double diminutive of Walter. My “Watts” is a similar construction. Both result from the Norman forename being adopted as Welsh patronymics before forming surnames. Both are common in the areas where Jones is uncommon. You’re spot on for Watkins in Breconshire. Watts is Pembrokeshire.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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