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Thread: Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends

  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here's the complete pedigree according to Genetic Homeland:

    M253>DF29>S243>BY151>L849>S2078>S2077>Y6375>Y6384> Y13945>BY40787>BY40607.

    Hope I didn't screw any of that up.
    Taking a look at the more recent SNPs and matches at YFull and FTDNA, there are fewer testers of Scandinavian origin than is the case with some other I1 subclades. So we are restricted to Britain at Y6375, which seems an informative SNP for the migration period as far as its TMRCA is concerned. Here the problem applies that many English testers pick the St George’s flag on YFull, which doesn’t give them the option of displaying which county their line was from. I can see a Cornwall there (Y13945) as well as a Gloucestershire downstream from your SNP. If I had to guess I would say a spread of your relative’s Y line with the Saxons is most likely (with my own I’d say the Angles because my immediate upstream matches are firmly in the north and east of England as well as Scandinavia for my terminal SNP). As we all know, these things are fraught with difficulty. One Y line could come over with the Angles, for example, to be followed a SNP or two later by someone from the Danish Vikings. So from Anglo-Saxon to Viking in a few generations. Any idea where the family was from and whether they’d been there for a long time?
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  3. #642
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    I collect ancestor YDNA when I can find them too (and I've asked various people to test). I have a Swedish line who I have YDNA on from 23andMe, but there break down is only R-Z19 (a subclade of R-U106). So far everyone else I've collected is also R-M269 (and the ones on FTDNA have not tested further). My dad is R-M269 and L21, but then a rarer subclade that supposedly is more European, so I'd just like to know if we can identify when his ancestors likely came to the UK. Someday we will have more matches.

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  5. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I collect ancestor YDNA when I can find them too (and I've asked various people to test). I have a Swedish line who I have YDNA on from 23andMe, but there break down is only R-Z19 (a subclade of R-U106). So far everyone else I've collected is also R-M269 (and the ones on FTDNA have not tested further). My dad is R-M269 and L21, but then a rarer subclade that supposedly is more European, so I'd just like to know if we can identify when his ancestors likely came to the UK. Someday we will have more matches.
    Looks like I might have found another one. One of my 4th great grandmothers on my dad's side was Sarah Stovall (b. 1777). Looks like her father's line was R1b-L270. Here's the phylogenetic pedigree on that one:

    L21>DF13>FGC11134>A353>Z16250>A114>CTS4466>S1115>F GC84010>A541>S1121>L270.

    CTS4466 apparently designates Irish Type II, but the immigrant (Bartholomew Stovall) came to North America from Surrey, England.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  7. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Taking a look at the more recent SNPs and matches at YFull and FTDNA, there are fewer testers of Scandinavian origin than is the case with some other I1 subclades. So we are restricted to Britain at Y6375, which seems an informative SNP for the migration period as far as its TMRCA is concerned. Here the problem applies that many English testers pick the St George’s flag on YFull, which doesn’t give them the option of displaying which county their line was from. I can see a Cornwall there (Y13945) as well as a Gloucestershire downstream from your SNP. If I had to guess I would say a spread of your relative’s Y line with the Saxons is most likely (with my own I’d say the Angles because my immediate upstream matches are firmly in the north and east of England as well as Scandinavia for my terminal SNP). As we all know, these things are fraught with difficulty. One Y line could come over with the Angles, for example, to be followed a SNP or two later by someone from the Danish Vikings. So from Anglo-Saxon to Viking in a few generations. Any idea where the family was from and whether they’d been there for a long time?
    I-Y6375 is a subclade of the elusive I-Z63 which doesn't seem to follow any real pattern of distribution (like Angle or Norse). So far Z63 related SNPs have been found in Wielbark (allegedly) and a Lombard setting (debatable if the individual was ethnically Lombard, and not Gepid).

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  9. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I-Y6375 is a subclade of the elusive I-Z63 which doesn't seem to follow any real pattern of distribution (like Angle or Norse). So far Z63 related SNPs have been found in Wielbark (allegedly) and a Lombard setting (debatable if the individual was ethnically Lombard, and not Gepid).
    Given that Z63 dates to shortly after modern I1 itself, I reckon the more recent subclades are the informative ones for working out possible routes to the Isles. We've still got a heck of a lot to learn, that's for sure.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  11. #646
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    This struck me as interesting from the new paper on Scotland and Ireland regarding Wales and the Welsh and is developed further in the study:
    "We first performed a supervised ADMIXTURE (14) analysis, modeling British and Irish clusters of interest as a mixture of 3 sources, England, ‘Wales’ (N Wales and S Wales), and Norway (Fig. 3A). These sources approximately represent Celtic (Wales), Saxon (England), and Norse (Norway)... The majority of ancestry in our tested clusters is modeled as the Welsh ancestral component, reflecting a common “Celtic” ancestry across Scotland and Ireland."
    The paper only used the POBI dataset for England and Wales (so we're still sadly lacking a rigorous study for Wales), but the map showing regional clusters is worth a look and a comparison with POBI's because some areas (including the Welsh Borders) look a bit clearer to me here.
    This from the Scottish and Irish paper also accords with the POBI study but is nevertheless interesting:
    "We observe the lowest levels of autozygosity in the group of clusters we denote as ‘England
    313 and Wales’. Most English clusters show the lowest levels of autozygosity in the whole analysis, with
    314 the exception of Cornwall. Cornwall (and Welsh clusters) shows elevated ROH that extend to runs
    315 larger than 5Mb – suggesting a degree of genetic isolation which agrees with their respective
    316 histories"
    Last edited by JonikW; 09-06-2019 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Fixed URL
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  13. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    This struck me as interesting from the new paper on Scotland and Ireland regarding Wales and the Welsh and is developed further in the study:
    "We first performed a supervised ADMIXTURE (14) analysis, modeling British and Irish clusters of interest as a mixture of 3 sources, England, ‘Wales’ (N Wales and S Wales), and Norway (Fig. 3A). These sources approximately represent Celtic (Wales), Saxon (England), and Norse (Norway)... The majority of ancestry in our tested clusters is modeled as the Welsh ancestral component, reflecting a common “Celtic” ancestry across Scotland and Ireland."
    The paper only used the POBI dataset for England and Wales (so we're still sadly lacking a rigorous study for Wales), but the map showing regional clusters is worth a look and a comparison with POBI's because some areas (including the Welsh Borders) look a bit clearer to me here.
    This from the Scottish and Irish paper also accords with the POBI study but is nevertheless interesting:
    "We observe the lowest levels of autozygosity in the group of clusters we denote as ‘England
    313 and Wales’. Most English clusters show the lowest levels of autozygosity in the whole analysis, with
    314 the exception of Cornwall. Cornwall (and Welsh clusters) shows elevated ROH that extend to runs
    315 larger than 5Mb – suggesting a degree of genetic isolation which agrees with their respective
    316 histories"
    It is good to have the Scottish and Manx information

    The nation-making histories of the “gwledydd” of these islands are rather contradictory so this more complete picture is fascinating. It is interesting to see familiar names from Welsh history : Gododdin, Rheged and Ystrad Clud/ Strathclyde.

    From a Welsh perspective (because the Welsh component is a benchmark) it is a little like looking through the wrong end of a telescope so a Welsh interpretation would be useful.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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  15. #648
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    Hi guys, a few months back I realized that I had some Welsh ancestry (due to 23andme) assigning ancestor locations. I mentioned this to my mother's sister, and she said that we did have ancestry from Wales. However she could not provide anymore details.

    This same aunt surprisingly agreed to take a DNA test. Today her Ancestry result came in. The only genetic community she received was to Wales//Mid Wales! Her England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe is only 7%.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

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  17. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Táltos View Post
    Hi guys, a few months back I realized that I had some Welsh ancestry (due to 23andme) assigning ancestor locations. I mentioned this to my mother's sister, and she said that we did have ancestry from Wales. However she could not provide anymore details.

    This same aunt surprisingly agreed to take a DNA test. Today her Ancestry result came in. The only genetic community she received was to Wales//Mid Wales! Her England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe is only 7%.
    I like the new GCs and they certainly tie in well for me. Any chance of discovering more about your Welsh line, and may I ask what your aunt scored for Ireland and Scotland?
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  19. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I like the new GCs and they certainly tie in well for me. Any chance of discovering more about your Welsh line, and may I ask what your aunt scored for Ireland and Scotland?
    She scored 11% for Ireland & Scotland. No GCs for them. Here is her complete result.

    28% France
    24% Greek & the Balkans
    20% Italy
    11% Ireland & Scotland
    8% Germanic Europe
    7% England, Wales, & NW Europe-Wales/ Mid Wales
    2% Turkey & the Caucasus


    She is mix on her mom's side. I was really surprised to see that she did not get Pennsylvania Settlers either. One of our close family member's on there received that. I was also surprised at how high the French is compared to German, but I guess they have issues too with teasing out which is which? I do have some proof that some of my early German lines married people in France. But it's really far back. I wouldn't expect that to be her top score.

    Honestly I'm not as familiar with how Ancestry's results go as compared to 23andme and FTDNA's tests.
    Maternal Grandfather's Y Line: J-ZS1711
    Maternal Grandfather's mtDNA: K2b1
    Paternal Grandmother’s mtDNA: U5a1

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