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Thread: Baltic R1a

  1. #1
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    Baltic R1a

    R1a is the most frequent haplogroup in modern Balts. While there are numerous topics of N1c1 in Balts in different websites, the Baltic R1a is not discussed nearly as much.
    So, I will start here by presenting some information that can be gathered online.

    1) According to study "Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Lithuanians" (D. Kasperaviciute), these are R1a figures in Lithuanians and Latvians:
    44.9% of Lithuanians (roughly same for Aukštaitians and Žemaitians)
    39.9% of Latvians
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...03.00119.x/pdf

    2) According to study "Y-Chromosomal Lineages of Latvians in the Context of the Genetic Variation of the Eastern-Baltic Region" (L.Pliss), these are R1a figures in Lithuanians and Latvians:
    34.1% of Lithuanians
    37.7% of Latvians (from 29% in East(!) to 45% in North West)

    Latvian R1a was also tested for M558 and M458. M458 and I2a and I2b were found in low numbers in East Latvia (Latgale), probably of Slavic origin. In total 3% of Latvians were under M458 and 35% under M558.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...12130/suppinfo

    3) Wikipedia's R1a tree
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...19.05.2014.jpg

    According to that tree, East Balts and East Slavs share Z92+ (would be part of M558 in this project?). Apparently M458 circled around modern Baltic lands, but did not really entered them, could be Slavic migration(?). CTS1211+ (Carpatian branch?) is present also in Balts (YP237 was marked as Lithuanian + Belorussian).


    So, that is all I could find at the moment. If you have something to share, I would be thankful.

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    Some additional quotes worth extra read from user Michal:
    "Most of those Slovenian cases of CTS1211 are likely members of a very specific "Carpathian-Dalmatian" subclade Y2613 that seems to be most frequent in Western Balkans (including both Slovenia and Croatia) and in the Northern Carpathian region (including SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine), though Y2613 is also seen (at lower frequencies) in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and Lusatia. There is also a relatively young potential Northern subclade of Y2613>Y2609 (or cluster Y2609-A), found in NE Poland/East Prussia, Lithuania and Latvia."
    Relatively young but very "Baltic" geographically. Need to check more info.

    "It is very hard to separate any relatively old subclades of CTS1211 (or of its sister clade Z92) that would be specifically associated with either Balts or Slavs, although its seems that YP237 (in the case of CTS1211) and YP270 (in the case of Z92) were more strongly associated with the Balts than with the Slavs (by contrast to Y33, Y2613, YP343). All this suggests that the early Balto-Slavic populations were thoroughly mixed at some early stage of their development, ie. before 1500 BC, which was most likely associated with the evolution of the Trzciniec cultural horizon."
    Must. Read. Trzciniec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Must. Read. Trzciniec.
    What I had in mind was actually not the Trzciniec culture itself but the much broader "Trzciniec horizon", which included Trzciniec, East Trzciniec, Sosnica, Komarov and some less studied individual sites north of those four cultures: http://www.iaepan.edu.pl/archaeologi...na/article/240

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    After a very brief look at the great ftDNA R1a database:
    Latvia: L664 1
    M458 – L1029: 4
    CTS1211 NFT : 2
    YP1034 1
    CTS3402 4
    Z92 1
    Z 93: 2

    Lithuania: CTS YP 1034: 2
    YP 493 : 1
    CTS3402: 29
    Z284: 1
    Z93: 7

    Ill look at closer detail of CTS3402 later, as well as more peri-Baltic populations (Finns, Estonians, etc)
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 03-08-2016 at 11:10 PM.

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    I am not so literate in R1a tree yet. So, only 1 Z92 in modern Balts so far?

    Z93 are probably not ethnic Lithuanians, Latvians. 4 samples of M458 in Latvia. Hm, this is interesting, can you post a link to that database so I can check their surnames? Since that contradicts the previous study of non-existance of M458 in Latvia (4 of 13 is not 3%).

    CTS3402 proportion in Lithuanian samples is crazy. It is like the 90% or so (29 of 33). I ignore Z93 since at least in Latvian project their surnames are Jewish usually.

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    I checked Latvia project in ftdna

    M458 Latvian (found only 2)
    Jankel Benjaminsohn, b.c.1777, Kuldiga, Latvia
    Jacob Oja b.

    Z93 Latvian
    Elia Trupin, b. bef. 1800, Dinaburg, Latvia
    Blums c.1870
    James J. Leigh (Levy)

    Hmm, Blums is actually common surname in Latvia. Other folk above is not ethnic Latvian.

    Z92+ there were 3 results, but one was Russian from Kirov region, Semko-Witkiewitz (not really Latvian). Maybe Makar Tschukis d. 1937 although I dont know such personal name Makar, surname though ends in -is, so might be Baltic.

    Edit: cts3402+ look Latvian. Although one Finn and one possibly Lithuanian (Matas Kaubre) is in.

    Edit2: has z92 really anything to do with (modern) Balts?
    Last edited by parastais; 03-09-2016 at 09:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    I am not so literate in R1a tree yet. So, only 1 Z92 in modern Balts so far?

    Z93 are probably not ethnic Lithuanians, Latvians. 4 samples of M458 in Latvia. Hm, this is interesting, can you post a link to that database so I can check their surnames? Since that contradicts the previous study of non-existance of M458 in Latvia (4 of 13 is not 3%).

    CTS3402 proportion in Lithuanian samples is crazy. It is like the 90% or so (29 of 33). I ignore Z93 since at least in Latvian project their surnames are Jewish usually.
    I suspect most Z93 are Jewish gentlemen, or ? Roma ancestry. Probably as in elsewhere in modern Eastern Europe.
    All the data I got is just by counting form the ftDNA R1a project.

    Im also surprised by the low Z92 count. It must be a recent expansion phenomenon limited to East Slavs. So far, I've seen 5 or so cases in Balkan Slavs.

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    Z92 bothers me a lot.
    Does anyone have a map with z92 estimated frequencies?

    I start to feel we dont have more Z92 than M458... to be precise we have neither of those.

    Instead most (80-90%??) of our R1a comes from subbranch under cts3402, which probably have some implications on Baltic ethnogenesys.

    Need to go deeper like in N1c, maybe in the end most of us (Balts) are paternal descendants of one early bce R1a guy and one early bce N1c guy )

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    Here are the relevant data from the R1a project:

    Lithuania (n=65)
    Y17491 -1
    M458 - 14
    Z280>CTS1211 - 24
    Z280>Z92 -14
    Z284 - 1
    Z93 - 11

    Latvia (n=14)
    L664 - 1
    M458 - 2
    Z280>CTS1211 - 7
    Z280>Z92 - 1
    Z93 - 3

    It seems clear that the contribution of Z92 is much stronger among the Lithuanians (and among people originating from East Prussia, NE Poland and NW Belarus, which has not been shown here) than among among the Latvians.
    Among the CTS1211 subclades, the most frequent are YP951 and YP420 (both under the "Baltic" clade YP237) and, quite surprisingly, Y2902 (which is a major "Slavic" subclade under CTS1211).
    I can provide a more detailed list of subclades, if required.

    Importantly, nearly all cases of Z93 are either Ashkenazi Jews (from both major Ashkenazi subclades) or Lithuanian Tatars (likely over-represented here). Also, some of the M458 cases are from the Ashkenazi cluster YP1013-A (under the East Slavic clade YP417).
    Last edited by Michał; 03-09-2016 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It seems clear that the contribution of Z92 is much stronger among the Lithuanians (and among people originating from East Prussia, NE Poland and NW Belarus, which has not been shown here) than among among the Latvians.
    Among the CTS1211 subclades, the most frequent are YP951 and YP420 (both under the "Baltic" clade YP237) and, quite surprisingly, Y2902 (which is a major "Slavic" subclade under CTS1211).
    I can provide a more detailed list of subclades, if required.
    I would love to see a more detailed list. For example if those "Slavic" subclades are more in Lithuania or Latvia or evenly. In general what kind of differences there are in Latvia vs Lithuania.

    Is there a way I can find that info myself in some Excel kind of format? I want to also check the surnames to see if persons there are of Latvian/ Lithuanian origin.

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