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Thread: Holy Roman Empire & Migration Period Ancient DNA from Germany

  1. #1
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    Holy Roman Empire & Migration Period Ancient DNA from Germany

    Gender distribution of excavation findings from the time of the Holy Roman Empire and the population migration period. Molecular genetic study using short tandem repeat markers
    M. Harthun · A.-M. Pflugbeil · N. Friedewald · D. Labudde · J. Edelmann · H. Bruchhaus · J. Dreßler · K. Thiele

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....194-015-0043-4

    Abstract
    Background. A skeleton collective from the fourth-fifth centuries was analyzed by molecular genetic strategies. Initial statements on gender distribution within the excavation find were made in advance by morphognostic analyses of the skeletal material; however, the gender could not be clearly determined by the morphognostic analysis in every individual case partly due to the condition of the material.
    Objectives. For verification of the morphognostic data obtained, DNA analyses were carried out for determination of gender and additionally Y chromosome haplotypes of skeletons from male individuals. This enabled a comparison of the results from the morphognostic gender determination on skulls with the genotyping results. Furthermore, the genotyping data were used to answer various questions on population genetics.
    Material and methods. Isolation and purification of DNA (phenol chloroform/isoamyl alcohol) were carried out from tooth samples of the skeleton collective and STR analyses
    were performed using the PowerPlex® S5 and PowerPlex® Y23 systems. Population genetic analyses were carried out based on the information obtained from 23 chromosomal STR markers. Furthermore, the samples were classified into relevant Y-chromosomal haplogroups by database-driven lineage information.
    Results. A total of 18 individuals could be classified with certainty as male and on the basis of the data it could be shown that the individuals must have been a resident population
    of the Central European region. Discussion. Despite limitations in criteria regarding the number of STR systems used, the methodology described is suitable for the analysis of ancient DNA (aDNA). Taking into account that the results achieved originated from a pilot study, further molecular genetic and population analyses should be carried out to obtain more insights into the population.

    This is written in German, so the details (as best as I can make them) seem to be that the samples are from the village of Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt). Instead of using an STR predictor, the authors chose to publish only the matches found against the YHRD database. Individual STR data was not given. Perhaps someone can figure out how to get the STR values out of YHRD based on sample name, because I could not find a way to do it. Here are the matches of 12 of the 18 individuals, all belonging to either haplogroup R or I...

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Gender distribution of excavation findings from the time of the Holy Roman Empire and the population migration period. Molecular genetic study using short tandem repeat markers
    M. Harthun · A.-M. Pflugbeil · N. Friedewald · D. Labudde · J. Edelmann · H. Bruchhaus · J. Dreßler · K. Thiele

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....194-015-0043-4

    Abstract
    Background. A skeleton collective from the fourth-fifth centuries was analyzed by molecular genetic strategies. Initial statements on gender distribution within the excavation find were made in advance by morphognostic analyses of the skeletal material; however, the gender could not be clearly determined by the morphognostic analysis in every individual case partly due to the condition of the material.
    Objectives. For verification of the morphognostic data obtained, DNA analyses were carried out for determination of gender and additionally Y chromosome haplotypes of skeletons from male individuals. This enabled a comparison of the results from the morphognostic gender determination on skulls with the genotyping results. Furthermore, the genotyping data were used to answer various questions on population genetics.
    Material and methods. Isolation and purification of DNA (phenol chloroform/isoamyl alcohol) were carried out from tooth samples of the skeleton collective and STR analyses
    were performed using the PowerPlex® S5 and PowerPlex® Y23 systems. Population genetic analyses were carried out based on the information obtained from 23 chromosomal STR markers. Furthermore, the samples were classified into relevant Y-chromosomal haplogroups by database-driven lineage information.
    Results. A total of 18 individuals could be classified with certainty as male and on the basis of the data it could be shown that the individuals must have been a resident population
    of the Central European region. Discussion. Despite limitations in criteria regarding the number of STR systems used, the methodology described is suitable for the analysis of ancient DNA (aDNA). Taking into account that the results achieved originated from a pilot study, further molecular genetic and population analyses should be carried out to obtain more insights into the population.

    This is written in German, so the details (as best as I can make them) seem to be that the samples are from the village of Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt). Instead of using an STR predictor, the authors chose to publish only the matches found against the YHRD database. Individual STR data was not given. Perhaps someone can figure out how to get the STR values out of YHRD based on sample name, because I could not find a way to do it. Here are the matches of 12 of the 18 individuals, all belonging to either haplogroup R or I...

    Hmmm... but those R1 are likely R1a? R1b? Perhaps the R1 Osteuropaisch is R1a and the other R1s Westeuropaischen are R1b? Is somewhat cryptic.

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    the samples are from the village of Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt).
    After the Migration Period, that area was at the German-Slavic ethnic borderland.

    So most probably the choice of place to collect samples from was not random:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-11-2016 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    Hmmm... but those R1 are likely R1a? R1b? Perhaps the R1 Osteuropaisch is R1a and the other R1s Westeuropaischen are R1b? Is somewhat cryptic.
    The authors of this study think, that R1b and R1a settled Europe already in Paleolithic times 40,000 years ago:

    Quote: "(...) Zeitgeschichtlich betrachtet können die Haplogruppe R und damit auch die Subhaplogruppen R1a und R1b mit der paläolithischen Besiedelung Europas vor 40.000 Jahren in Bezug gebracht werden. (...)"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    Hmmm... but those R1 are likely R1a? R1b? Perhaps the R1 Osteuropaisch is R1a and the other R1s Westeuropaischen are R1b? Is somewhat cryptic.
    I'll take a look, but those are the metapopulations that the haplotype matches in the YHRD database, not necessarily if it is R1b or R1a. For example, there is an I1 that matches Afro-American sample(s). One thing is clear, lots of I1 as we have already seen 1 sample turn up in Anglo-Saxon England.

    I find it a little amusing they couldn't predict R1b or R1a for the other three samples with 23 STR on the Powerplex tool. They must be fairly common haplotypes since my own on Powerplex returns 0 matches, and only 15 matched on the minimal haplotype.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 03-11-2016 at 08:16 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    There is another problem (in English anyway): why speaking of the Holy Roman Empire?
    The correct word would have been Roman Empire.

    The Holy Roman Empire took place with Otho I, centuries later.

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    Which of the samples are from the Migration Period, and which from the Holy Roman Empire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    There is another problem (in English anyway): why speaking of the Holy Roman Empire?
    The correct word would have been Roman Empire.

    The Holy Roman Empire took place with Otho I, centuries later.
    The original says just "römischen Kaiser- und Völkerwanderungszeit", so I guess it is a mistranslation in the English abstract.

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    Any details about these aDNA samples ???

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    What exactly is this "Austronesisch" haplogroup I?

    Do Austronesians even have any haplogroup I ???

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